cheating or not?

[beersmania@yahoo.com]

Here is the situation. Playing a SNG last night. Taking forever bc 2
guys keep timing out to make a play. Pissing everyone off. We get down
to 4 players. Mr. Slow and I are the short stacks. I chat "My goal is
to take 3rd and Mr. Slow to not win money". The other two players would
like to see it too. Here is the hand in question: I am in bb, about to
be knocked out, when Mr. Slow and 2nd in chips folds. The chip leader
folded his sb to me and types "I folded good cards". He did this to
keep Mr. Slow from winning money.

Is this cheating or a gray area? None of us know each other, just
bonded from getting irate at the 2 slow players.

How would the website view this hand if reported?

PS Mr. Slow took 3rd, I took 2nd, almost knocking out chip leader.

Thanks

[markag68]

it is called chip dumping. it is cheating. it appears though that you would not
be faulted but the chip leader aka chip dumper would be. if reported and it was
obvious then they should do something to the chip dumper. you cant help if some
one folds to you in the bb. hell he could of had shit hands. it is only when
doing on purpose to effect the out come no matter hand selection that it is
cheating.
gonzo...

On Oct 23 2005 7:05 AM, beersmania@yahoo.com wrote:

> Here is the situation. Playing a SNG last night. Taking forever bc 2
> guys keep timing out to make a play. Pissing everyone off. We get down
> to 4 players. Mr. Slow and I are the short stacks. I chat "My goal is
> to take 3rd and Mr. Slow to not win money". The other two players would
> like to see it too. Here is the hand in question: I am in bb, about to
> be knocked out, when Mr. Slow and 2nd in chips folds. The chip leader
> folded his sb to me and types "I folded good cards". He did this to
> keep Mr. Slow from winning money.
>
> Is this cheating or a gray area? None of us know each other, just
> bonded from getting irate at the 2 slow players.
>
> How would the website view this hand if reported?
>
> PS Mr. Slow took 3rd, I took 2nd, almost knocking out chip leader.
>
> Thanks



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[anonymous1]

Personally, I dont think it is.  If you were so short stacked as to be nearly
all in in the blind, the chip leaders range of 'good' cards could consist of any
2 hes dealt.  And, he didnt say anything about folding specifically to keep you
in the game.  He could have had a 4 2 offsuit, and is just using it as some sort
of trick to set you up later.

As for your goal, that was probably not a good tactical move on your part. 
Granted that everyone's goal at the table was to take at least 3rd, you were
basically telling everyone that your happy just to win money, not to take 1st
place.  Youll end up getting some loose calls you dont want (but maybe some you
do, depends on the cards) people to make against you when your pushing your
stack into the pot.

In summary, this could be seen as cheating, but I dont think there is anything
you did that constitutes hard evidence to suggest that.



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[Fearless Freap]

I'm not sure its cheating. He said he folded good cards but he may have had
rags. You were both gunning for Mr Slow and that happens all the time to jerks
like that.

Now if you and Mr Chip Leader were openly colluding that would of course be
cheating and he could report you to the website. They can run a history of all
the games you've played at their site. But unless you and Mr Chip Leader have a
patteren of playing together in the same games, doing simmalur things, I wouldnt
sweat it.

Collusion does happen but not very often.

On Oct 23 2005 6:05 AM, beersmania@yahoo.com wrote:

> Here is the situation. Playing a SNG last night. Taking forever bc 2
> guys keep timing out to make a play. Pissing everyone off. We get down
> to 4 players. Mr. Slow and I are the short stacks. I chat "My goal is
> to take 3rd and Mr. Slow to not win money". The other two players would
> like to see it too. Here is the hand in question: I am in bb, about to
> be knocked out, when Mr. Slow and 2nd in chips folds. The chip leader
> folded his sb to me and types "I folded good cards". He did this to
> keep Mr. Slow from winning money.
>
> Is this cheating or a gray area? None of us know each other, just
> bonded from getting irate at the 2 slow players.
>
> How would the website view this hand if reported?
>
> PS Mr. Slow took 3rd, I took 2nd, almost knocking out chip leader.
>
> Thanks



_______________________________________________________________
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[Randy]

On Sun, 23 Oct 05 16:15:24 GMT, Fearless Freap <43081675@recpoker.com>
wrote:

>Collusion does happen but not very often.

i agree its probably rare...but when you look at the sheer numbers of
hands being dealt online, it probably happens way more then we think.
There have probably been in excess of 20 billion hands dealt online in
the last 4 years. If there was no collusion 99.99% of the time, then
collusion occurred 2 million times in the last 4 years.

I cant remember a visit to a casino in the last 4 years where I didnt
share the table with a stranger who claimed to collude with friends
online and see nothing wrong with it. Usually the rationale is
everyone does it.

If the Big Stack guy really did fold a good hand, then he cheated. It
doesnt matter why. Stalling, while obnoxious, is a pretty standard
move online. The cardrooms can stop it anytime they want, but its not
against the rules.

Randy

[Fearless Freap]

The trouble with collusion online is you dont know what the mark has. Even
though one bad guy (with AA) flops a set and they jam the pot against the mark,
the mark may make a straigh, flush, full house...who knows?
Instead of cheating the mark out of $1000 the bad guys may lose $2000. Unless
they somehow know the marks hole cards its most likely not a major money maker
for them.
I agree collusion does happen but I dont think its near as profitable as
learning to play the game right. I dont worry about it anyway.



On Oct 23 2005 11:29 AM, Randy wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Oct 05 16:15:24 GMT, Fearless Freap <43081675@recpoker.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Collusion does happen but not very often.
>
> i agree its probably rare...but when you look at the sheer numbers of
> hands being dealt online, it probably happens way more then we think.
> There have probably been in excess of 20 billion hands dealt online in
> the last 4 years. If there was no collusion 99.99% of the time, then
> collusion occurred 2 million times in the last 4 years.
>
> I cant remember a visit to a casino in the last 4 years where I didnt
> share the table with a stranger who claimed to collude with friends
> online and see nothing wrong with it. Usually the rationale is
> everyone does it.
>
> If the Big Stack guy really did fold a good hand, then he cheated. It
> doesnt matter why. Stalling, while obnoxious, is a pretty standard
> move online. The cardrooms can stop it anytime they want, but its not
> against the rules.
>
> Randy



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[Fearless Freap]

On Oct 23 2005 12:34 PM, Fearless Freap wrote:

>
> The trouble with collusion online is you dont know what the mark has. Even
> though one bad guy (with AA) flops a set and they jam the pot against the
> mark,
> the mark may make a straigh, flush, full house...who knows?

okay not full house (BRAIN FART)...quads.

> Instead of cheating the mark out of $1000 the bad guys may lose $2000. Unless
> they somehow know the marks hole cards its most likely not a major money maker
> for them.
> I agree collusion does happen but I dont think its near as profitable as
> learning to play the game right. I dont worry about it anyway.
>
>
>
> On Oct 23 2005 11:29 AM, Randy wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 23 Oct 05 16:15:24 GMT, Fearless Freap <43081675@recpoker.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Collusion does happen but not very often.
> >
> > i agree its probably rare...but when you look at the sheer numbers of
> > hands being dealt online, it probably happens way more then we think.
> > There have probably been in excess of 20 billion hands dealt online in
> > the last 4 years. If there was no collusion 99.99% of the time, then
> > collusion occurred 2 million times in the last 4 years.
> >
> > I cant remember a visit to a casino in the last 4 years where I didnt
> > share the table with a stranger who claimed to collude with friends
> > online and see nothing wrong with it. Usually the rationale is
> > everyone does it.
> >
> > If the Big Stack guy really did fold a good hand, then he cheated. It
> > doesnt matter why. Stalling, while obnoxious, is a pretty standard
> > move online. The cardrooms can stop it anytime they want, but its not
> > against the rules.
> >
> > Randy
>
>



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[NTW]

Without expressing a reason for his folding of 'good cards' he is not in any
kind of trouble.

Afterall there's no law against folding any 2 cards you want.

Sure we know the motives here are probably to keep you afloat, but there's
nothing against it.

If he'd said he was folding until that guy was busted it wouldn't even be wrong
because he is implying a strategy that is safer for him to obtain a top 3
position.

what would be wrong is "ok guys, let's knock this douche bag out, i'm not
getting in your way, you don't get in my way"

it's like the tourney rule 'don't bluff the dry side pot' .. it's okay to employ
this rule, but discussing it (i.e. saying "don't bluff at this pot if we check
we have a better chance at winning...only bet if you got this guy beat") is
against the rules.





On Oct 23 2005 7:05 AM, beersmania@yahoo.com wrote:

> Here is the situation. Playing a SNG last night. Taking forever bc 2
> guys keep timing out to make a play. Pissing everyone off. We get down
> to 4 players. Mr. Slow and I are the short stacks. I chat "My goal is
> to take 3rd and Mr. Slow to not win money". The other two players would
> like to see it too. Here is the hand in question: I am in bb, about to
> be knocked out, when Mr. Slow and 2nd in chips folds. The chip leader
> folded his sb to me and types "I folded good cards". He did this to
> keep Mr. Slow from winning money.
>
> Is this cheating or a gray area? None of us know each other, just
> bonded from getting irate at the 2 slow players.
>
> How would the website view this hand if reported?
>
> PS Mr. Slow took 3rd, I took 2nd, almost knocking out chip leader.
>
> Thanks



_______________________________________________________________
New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com

[Kincaid]

That's not chip dumping.

Raising the other players stack -1 and then folding to a reraise would be chip
dumping.  Saying "I folded good cards" isn't.  If I were chip leader in the SB
up against a guy who is likely to push, I might fold my 98s as well, (good cards
to some.)

On Oct 23 2005 5:31 AM, markag68 wrote:

>
> it is called chip dumping. it is cheating. it appears though that you would
> not
> be faulted but the chip leader aka chip dumper would be. if reported and it
> was
> obvious then they should do something to the chip dumper. you cant help if
> some
> one folds to you in the bb. hell he could of had shit hands. it is only when
> doing on purpose to effect the out come no matter hand selection that it is
> cheating.
> gonzo...
>
> On Oct 23 2005 7:05 AM, beersmania@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Here is the situation. Playing a SNG last night. Taking forever bc 2
> > guys keep timing out to make a play. Pissing everyone off. We get down
> > to 4 players. Mr. Slow and I are the short stacks. I chat "My goal is
> > to take 3rd and Mr. Slow to not win money". The other two players would
> > like to see it too. Here is the hand in question: I am in bb, about to
> > be knocked out, when Mr. Slow and 2nd in chips folds. The chip leader
> > folded his sb to me and types "I folded good cards". He did this to
> > keep Mr. Slow from winning money.
> >
> > Is this cheating or a gray area? None of us know each other, just
> > bonded from getting irate at the 2 slow players.
> >
> > How would the website view this hand if reported?
> >
> > PS Mr. Slow took 3rd, I took 2nd, almost knocking out chip leader.
> >
> > Thanks
>
>



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[qqqxxxyyyzzz2000]

On 23 Oct 2005 04:05:31 -0700, beersmania@yahoo.com wrote:

>Here is the situation. Playing a SNG last night. Taking forever bc 2
>guys keep timing out to make a play. Pissing everyone off. We get down
>to 4 players. Mr. Slow and I are the short stacks. I chat "My goal is
>to take 3rd and Mr. Slow to not win money". The other two players would
>like to see it too. Here is the hand in question: I am in bb, about to
>be knocked out, when Mr. Slow and 2nd in chips folds. The chip leader
>folded his sb to me and types "I folded good cards". He did this to
>keep Mr. Slow from winning money.
>
>Is this cheating or a gray area? None of us know each other, just
>bonded from getting irate at the 2 slow players.
>
>How would the website view this hand if reported?
>
>PS Mr. Slow took 3rd, I took 2nd, almost knocking out chip leader.
>
>Thanks


That's a "soft play" not a chip dump as others have said. If the chip
leader actually had a good hand he could very well get called on it by
the site if someone complains. And someone might based on the
previous chat.

You almost beating him out of first is a good example of how that type
of soft play is pretty stupid.

[Joe Long]

On Sun, 23 Oct 05 18:03:37 GMT, Kincaid <kincaid@z95.com> wrote:

>That's not chip dumping.
>
>Raising the other players stack -1 and then folding to a reraise would be chip
>dumping.  Saying "I folded good cards" isn't.  If I were chip leader in the SB
>up against a guy who is likely to push, I might fold my 98s as well, (good cards
>to some.)

The OP was all-in in the BB.

However, it's a gray area regarding chip-dumping, as the SB wasn't
colluding with the BB but taking the action he felt best for himelf
.... hurting the slow player. As long as the SB believes it to be to
his advantage to keep the SB alive, he can do so as long as they don't
discuss doing it. IMO.

For example, it can be to the chip leader's advantage to keep a very
short-stacked player alive on the bubble, to better attack the
in-between stacks (who may fear being eliminated on the bubble and
play differently because of it).

--

Joe Long (aka ChipRider)
Somewhere on the Range

[Joe Long]

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 12:29:54 -0400, Randy <isuck@onlinepoker.com>
wrote:

>If the Big Stack guy really did fold a good hand, then he cheated. It
>doesnt matter why. ...

Not necessarily. As I pointed out in another post, it can be to the
chip leader's advantage to keep the short-stack alive on the bubble,
because then he can more effectively bully the medium stacks (Many
players play too tight on the bubble and loosen up as soon as they are
in the money). This is legitimate as the player is "dumping" to help
himself, not to collude.

--

Joe Long (aka ChipRider)
Somewhere on the Range

[Joe Long]

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:44:36 -0600, qqqxxxyyyzzz2000
<qqqxxxyyyzzz2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

>That's a "soft play" not a chip dump as others have said. If the chip
>leader actually had a good hand he could very well get called on it by
>the site if someone complains. And someone might based on the
>previous chat.
>
>You almost beating him out of first is a good example of how that type
>of soft play is pretty stupid.

It depends on the situation. Let's say there are four of us and three
places pay. I have 60,000 in chips, two players have 30,000 each, and
the short stack has 1000 chips. It is to my advantage to NOT bust out
the short stack, if the two players with 30,000 are anxious to avoid
busting out on the bubble. I want to keep alive my ability to bully
the middle stacks "on the bubble" as long as I can. So, in this
situation, if I can give the short stack just the blinds by folding, I
probably will.

--

Joe Long (aka ChipRider)
Somewhere on the Range

[Quick]

Joe Long wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:44:36 -0600, qqqxxxyyyzzz2000
> <qqqxxxyyyzzz2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> That's a "soft play" not a chip dump as others have
>> said. If the chip leader actually had a good hand he
>> could very well get called on it by the site if someone
>> complains. And someone might based on the previous chat.
>>
>> You almost beating him out of first is a good example of
>> how that type of soft play is pretty stupid.
>
> It depends on the situation. Let's say there are four of
> us and three places pay. I have 60,000 in chips, two
> players have 30,000 each, and the short stack has 1000
> chips. It is to my advantage to NOT bust out the short
> stack, if the two players with 30,000 are anxious to
> avoid busting out on the bubble. I want to keep alive my
> ability to bully the middle stacks "on the bubble" as
> long as I can. So, in this situation, if I can give the
> short stack just the blinds by folding, I probably will.

shhhh... besides, *everybody* says they folded good cards.

-Quick