The hands that are killing me

[Royber]

I've been working on plugging any leaks I have, so I've almost stopped
playing pocket pairs 99 and under completely. The only exception is if
I'm the BB and there is no raise. I've been keeping track of all the
money I've been saving, and it is really working out.

BUT, pocket pairs still seem to be a major leak for me. Not AA or KK,
or even QQ. TT and JJ are killers for me. I simply just don't know how
to play them. I'm playing low limit. Is it worth raising them pre-flop
(right now I do not). Do I dump them as soon as an overcard hits
(which is usually my strategy but for some reason with TT or JJ I hang
around for an extra bet). Or do I just plain muck them, and take them
out of my starting hands like I did the lower pairs?

Any help appreciated.

[greg]

I'm by no means an experienced player, so weigh their advice more
heavily than mine. I've been playing for about a month at a local
casino and winning consistently, but I know that means nothing. I have
-never- won with any pocket pair. Not even aces. In fact, I'm 0/5 with
pocket rockets. I have never even flopped a set, except once but there
was a straight and I correctly layed it down. Does that I'm going stop
playing pocket pairs? Of course not. Statistically, I'm owed a lot of
money. I always see people playing at my table and winning with TT and
JJ, but it never happens to me. Many of the people I see win with these
hands are (poorly) sticking it out to the river with the second pair and
making sets on the river.

If you have one of these hands in early position, I say raise -
encourage people to fold. The more people who fold, the more likely you
will win with a hand like TT, JJ. Don't raise with this in late
position pre-flop because at low limit games you won't encourage anyone
to fold after theyve already bet.

Anyways thats my advice, for whatever it's worth. If anyone disagrees
with anything I've said, listen to them. (I sure will).

Good Luck,
Greg

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RGP ACCESS at http://www.LiveActionPoker.com

[PigDog]

Royber wrote:
> I've been working on plugging any leaks I have, so I've almost stopped
> playing pocket pairs 99 and under completely. The only exception is if
> I'm the BB and there is no raise. I've been keeping track of all the
> money I've been saving, and it is really working out.
>
> BUT, pocket pairs still seem to be a major leak for me. Not AA or KK,
> or even QQ. TT and JJ are killers for me. I simply just don't know how
> to play them. I'm playing low limit. Is it worth raising them pre-flop
> (right now I do not). Do I dump them as soon as an overcard hits
> (which is usually my strategy but for some reason with TT or JJ I hang
> around for an extra bet). Or do I just plain muck them, and take them
> out of my starting hands like I did the lower pairs?

If you're on my table you should muck them. Otherwise RAISE. Raise in
early position to knock out weak A's K's and Q's which might beat you.
Raise in late position to try and buy the button and possibly intice the
table to 'check to the preflop raiser' after the flop. If it's already been
raised and there hasn't been any cold-callers I would normally re-raise to
try and knock out the rest of the field and be heads up with the raiser.
Any pair is a favourite over raising hands like AK and AQ in a heads up
situation.

[Matthew Speed]

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:45:49 GMT, Royber<xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

Pocket pairs have to be played very carefully. Once there are more
than 3 + you seeing the flop your chances with them go down. They are
best heads up and much better at higher limits. When you are playing
10/20 or higher and you make it 20 to go you've told every one yet to
call that you have good cards and that they are going to have to
improve to beat you and you are going to make it as expensive as
possible to get to a showdown.

In low limit, the winning players are not those who win a lot but who
don't give back their hard earned winnings. If the board looks scary
get out. If the board pairs higher than 9 you are probably beat. If
there is three to a 9 or higher straight or 3 flush you may be beat.
If an A falls and you have KK or QQ you are almost certainly beat
because at every low limit table is one person who sees every flop
when they hold an Ace. As pretty as they look in the hole, you have
to be able to lay AA,KK, QQ down. At low limits I consider suited no
gap better than a big pair because if you hit you will drag a big pot
and at low limits you need to drag big pots to survive the rake.
You'll only flop a set one in eight times you hold a pocket pair.
When you do bet out and make the drawing hands pay.

[.B.]

"Matthew Speed" <mspeed@mspeed.net> wrote in message
news:qo28jvgnjfic2rf4qvihmjj929v076vib5@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:45:49 GMT, Royber<xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
>
> In low limit, the winning players are not those who win a lot but who
> don't give back their hard earned winnings.

I am learning this lesson now.

I am fairly new, but try to play a tight-aggressive game. Also, I am now
working on my leaks and this is a big one. Lost last night with AKc to A4o
with flop of 4A7 (sorry don't remember rest of board). They never raised,
just called.

I did lay down a few last night, but oviously need to do more.

Also, I'm wondering if I'm getting slowplayed when I bet aggressively, or if
(since it is low limit) they're mostly just check-calling stations. For
most, I'm sure it is the latter, but a few I'm not sure about. How would I
counter this if I am? Check-raise?

[.B.]

"Matthew Speed" <mspeed@mspeed.net> wrote in message
news:ok88jvcjhrlngpsds38a5nh370l4s585ta@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:12:52 -0700, ".B." <jagerball@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >"Matthew Speed" <mspeed@mspeed.net> wrote in message
> >news:qo28jvgnjfic2rf4qvihmjj929v076vib5@4ax.com...
> >> On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:45:49 GMT, Royber<xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> >>
> >> In low limit, the winning players are not those who win a lot but who
> >> don't give back their hard earned winnings.
> >
> >I am learning this lesson now.
> >
> >I am fairly new, but try to play a tight-aggressive game. Also, I am now
> >working on my leaks and this is a big one. Lost last night with AKc to
A4o
> >with flop of 4A7 (sorry don't remember rest of board). They never
raised,
> >just called.
> >
> >I did lay down a few last night, but oviously need to do more.
> >
> >Also, I'm wondering if I'm getting slowplayed when I bet aggressively, or
if
> >(since it is low limit) they're mostly just check-calling stations. For
> >most, I'm sure it is the latter, but a few I'm not sure about. How would
I
> >counter this if I am? Check-raise?
> >
> When I play low limit I rarely ever raise pre-flop. I get to the flop
> as cheaply as possible then hope it helps. 4 straight, 4 flush, set,
> 2 pair with top pair, etc. Over paid to the board maybe. Top pair
> with higher kicker isn't bad. I will not call a bet without
> improvement on the flop and it has to be improvement in the direction
> of the board. Two pair on a 3 flush flop is not a good flop if there
> are 3 ore more in because a guy with 4 flush is getting correct odds
> to stay until the river. I try not to kick people out before the
> river because in low limit you are almost always going to have to
> showdown a winner. You might as well let them put in one more bet if
> they are going to. Although check-calling is normally a sign of weak
> play in low limit it is almost necessary to get people to do your
> betting for you, especially if you are in the lead and there are 4
> players behind you. That guy at the end almost can't resist betting
> when everyone has checked to him unless his cards are truly awful.
> Only when the other people have figured out that you turn over the
> winner every time will they start to fold if you bet and then you
> still have one guy that often throws his chips in saying "I know you
> got me beat but I gotta see it" You see a lot fewer turns and rivers
> if you play low limit right but you win a much higher percentage of
> showdowns because you are in on mostly big draws.

Thanks. That clarifies some of the reading I've been doing and the "field
experimentation" I've been doing lately.

[Mookie]

I generally raise TT, JJ or QQ. Then if an overcard hits the board you can
pretty much pack it in, if anyone somewhat tight bets/raises it. Play them
hard until resistence (or such an ugly board you know you're done) is the
way I see it. They are fairly easy to play, but are seductive...

Lower pocket pairs are draw hands if there are a lot of people in. You
don't flop a set then fold. This is very lucrative, With only one or two
tight opponents, bet the flop and see what happens. You can also raise 'em
and play em like higher pairs if you are that kind of player.

That's my current take on them. I think not playing them wastes many
chances to make big dough. A fullhouse just kills the guy with trip Aces.


"Royber" <xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote in message
news:ptu7jvg5tv4fcvhb3f4j666qjs950nq9jh@4ax.com...
> I've been working on plugging any leaks I have, so I've almost stopped
> playing pocket pairs 99 and under completely. The only exception is if
> I'm the BB and there is no raise. I've been keeping track of all the
> money I've been saving, and it is really working out.
>
> BUT, pocket pairs still seem to be a major leak for me. Not AA or KK,
> or even QQ. TT and JJ are killers for me. I simply just don't know how
> to play them. I'm playing low limit. Is it worth raising them pre-flop
> (right now I do not). Do I dump them as soon as an overcard hits
> (which is usually my strategy but for some reason with TT or JJ I hang
> around for an extra bet). Or do I just plain muck them, and take them
> out of my starting hands like I did the lower pairs?
>
> Any help appreciated.

[Royber]

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 19:08:02 GMT, "deeznutz" <abc@123.com> wrote:

>another seat on the short bus taken.

When I posted this I was praying that I would get a reply from the
great "deeznutz". Wow. Thanks for fulfilling a dream.


>> Do I dump them as soon as an overcard hits
>> (which is usually my strategy but for some reason with TT or JJ I hang
>> around for an extra bet). Or do I just plain muck them, and take them
>> out of my starting hands like I did the lower pairs?
>>
>> Any help appreciated.
>

[Royber]

On 08 Aug 2003 19:16:07 GMT, greg <greg@symbitoic-music.com> wrote:

>I'm by no means an experienced player, so weigh their advice more
>heavily than mine. I've been playing for about a month at a local
>casino and winning consistently, but I know that means nothing. I have
>-never- won with any pocket pair. Not even aces. In fact, I'm 0/5 with
>pocket rockets. I have never even flopped a set, except once but there
>was a straight and I correctly layed it down. Does that I'm going stop
>playing pocket pairs? Of course not. Statistically, I'm owed a lot of
>money. I always see people playing at my table and winning with TT and
>JJ, but it never happens to me. Many of the people I see win with these
>hands are (poorly) sticking it out to the river with the second pair and
>making sets on the river.
>
> If you have one of these hands in early position, I say raise -
>encourage people to fold. The more people who fold, the more likely you
>will win with a hand like TT, JJ. Don't raise with this in late
>position pre-flop because at low limit games you won't encourage anyone
>to fold after theyve already bet.
>
> Anyways thats my advice, for whatever it's worth. If anyone disagrees
>with anything I've said, listen to them. (I sure will).
>
>Good Luck,
>Greg

Thanks for the advice. It doesn't matter to me how much experience you
have, I can learn from everyone.

[Mookie]

>>If you're on my table you should muck them. Otherwise RAISE. Raise in
early position to knock out weak A's K's and Q's which might beat you.
Raise in late position to try and buy the button and possibly intice the
table to 'check to the preflop raiser' after the flop. If it's already been
raised and there hasn't been any cold-callers I would normally re-raise to
try and knock out the rest of the field and be heads up with the raiser.
Any pair is a favourite over raising hands like AK and AQ in a heads up
situation.

This is very interesting advice, the only problem is the occassions the
raiser has a higher pair and will bet them and call no matter what. It can
get expensive, given you won't know until the river. But generally, I think
this may be the way to go. It also mixes things up so people don't know
what your raising and don't know that low cards mean you missed the flop.

[D. Franks]

General rule of thumb: Preflop, always raise AA-10. Always reraise
with AA-JJ. If you're on the button you can raise down to about 88.
Generally, if I don't hit a set with 8-10, and there's an overcard on
the board, I check and fold. If the board isn't dangerous looking,
then I bet it. But be prepared to get out if an overcard falls and
somebody plays back at you.

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:45:49 GMT, Royber<xxx@xxx.xxx> wrote:

>I've been working on plugging any leaks I have, so I've almost stopped
>playing pocket pairs 99 and under completely. The only exception is if
>I'm the BB and there is no raise. I've been keeping track of all the
>money I've been saving, and it is really working out.
>
>BUT, pocket pairs still seem to be a major leak for me. Not AA or KK,
>or even QQ. TT and JJ are killers for me. I simply just don't know how
>to play them. I'm playing low limit. Is it worth raising them pre-flop
>(right now I do not). Do I dump them as soon as an overcard hits
>(which is usually my strategy but for some reason with TT or JJ I hang
>around for an extra bet). Or do I just plain muck them, and take them
>out of my starting hands like I did the lower pairs?
>
>Any help appreciated.