can we get any real replies to this?

[DeezNutz]

JacksonFive wrote:

For those that play 10/20, 15/30, and 20/40 regularly and at various
locales, can you give me, in some detail, the major differences between
the limits? Is the play at 10/20 generally significantly different from
the play a 20/40? How so and how consistently? As some sort of
indication, can you give me an example of a mistake commonly seen at 10/20
that is rarely seen at 20/40? Where does 15/30 fit into this? Thank you
to anyone who takes the time to answer this.

[Gary Carson]

It's not a real question.


On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:30:47 GMT, "DeezNutz" <hbdhhvav@fvhshbshbp.com>
wrote:

>
>JacksonFive wrote:
>
>For those that play 10/20, 15/30, and 20/40 regularly and at various
>locales, can you give me, in some detail, the major differences
between
>the limits? Is the play at 10/20 generally significantly different
from
>the play a 20/40? How so and how consistently? As some sort of
>indication, can you give me an example of a mistake commonly seen at
10/20
>that is rarely seen at 20/40? Where does 15/30 fit into this? Thank
you
>to anyone who takes the time to answer this.
>
>
>

[DeezNutz]

ook, well aside from the betting limits being different, what is the major
difference seen at a 10/20 table compared to a 20/40 table? gary, don't
reply as i have heard you only play 3/6 and under...


"Gary Carson" <garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:3f20455f.79913172@news.mindspring.com...
> It's not a real question.
>
>
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:30:47 GMT, "DeezNutz" <hbdhhvav@fvhshbshbp.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >JacksonFive wrote:
> >
> >For those that play 10/20, 15/30, and 20/40 regularly and at various
> >locales, can you give me, in some detail, the major differences
> between
> >the limits? Is the play at 10/20 generally significantly different
> from
> >the play a 20/40? How so and how consistently? As some sort of
> >indication, can you give me an example of a mistake commonly seen at
> 10/20
> >that is rarely seen at 20/40? Where does 15/30 fit into this? Thank
> you
> >to anyone who takes the time to answer this.
> >
> >
> >
>

[Ken M]

It varies a lot from casino to casino, day to day, etc. Where I play most of
the time, the 10-20 normally has 5 or 6 players who really haven't figured out
basic starting hands.

The 15-30 is normally the highest game, and all the tough players go to it.
They play good starting hands, they know how to make a move, etc.
They make the classic "tenth best player in the world playing with the nine
better players" mistake.

When the 20-40 is spread, the same players seem to get scared of the money and
the game gets easy to beat. If it were spread regularly, the players would
adapt and that game would get hard to beat.

On the other hand, I've played 10-20 in St Louis when the game was the toughest
I've ever seen.

Your question really can't be answered.

[DeezNutz]

thanks, but what is

> They make the classic "tenth best player in the world playing with the
nine
> better players" mistake.

this all about?

[Gary Carson]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:59:10 GMT, "DeezNutz" <hbdhhvav@fvhshbshbp.com>
wrote:

>ook, well aside from the betting limits being different, what is the
major
>difference seen at a 10/20 table compared to a 20/40 table? gary,
don't
>reply as i have heard you only play 3/6 and under...
>

Even a 3/6 player would realize it's a non-question if it's a 3/6
player with an understanding of the game.

It depends on location, day of the week, what other games are
avialable, who's in the game, etc, etc. The nominal limit itself
pretty much doesn't mean anything.

I used to play in a cardroom with a very, very wild 20/40 game. In
that cardroom the 10/20 game was pretty passive, a little tight. The
15/30 game finially died and it was a very tight game, it used a 1/3
blind structure.

The cardroom I play in now sometimes has very wild 10/20 O8 games --
loose and aggresive.

If you want to make a generaliztion it's that as the limit increases
the games tend to become more aggresive. That's probably close to a
universal truth.
>
>"Gary Carson" <garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
>news:3f20455f.79913172@news.mindspring.com...
>> It's not a real question.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:30:47 GMT, "DeezNutz"
<hbdhhvav@fvhshbshbp.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >JacksonFive wrote:
>> >
>> >For those that play 10/20, 15/30, and 20/40 regularly and at
various
>> >locales, can you give me, in some detail, the major differences
>> between
>> >the limits? Is the play at 10/20 generally significantly
different
>> from
>> >the play a 20/40? How so and how consistently? As some sort of
>> >indication, can you give me an example of a mistake commonly seen
at
>> 10/20
>> >that is rarely seen at 20/40? Where does 15/30 fit into this?
Thank
>> you
>> >to anyone who takes the time to answer this.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>

[BANKROLLONSWOLL]

A DEADHEAD TOO, AND A RACIST.

"Bennett Niizawa" <beandoggerel@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3f20565d$0$39740$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
> On Jul 24 2003 7:30AM, DeezNutz wrote:
>
> > "Gary Carson"
> >
> >
> > Who are you anyway??
>
> I believe he authored the phrase, "All you need is a grilled cheese
> sandwich and a chair."
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com
>
>

[Sweet Melissa]

He wrote "The Complete Book of Hold 'Em Poker: A Comprehensive Guide to
Playing and Winning", which is apparently quite good.

"DeezNutz" <hugvgvgvy@vhhvwhv9v.com> wrote in message
news:YbYTa.113201$EQ5.108958@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
> "Gary Carson"
>
>
> Who are you anyway??

[BANKROLLONSWOLL]

I BET YOU ARE WHITE



"Sweet Melissa" <mjharvey@takethisouthouston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:JLYTa.94478$XV.5907639@twister.austin.rr.com...
> He wrote "The Complete Book of Hold 'Em Poker: A Comprehensive Guide to
> Playing and Winning", which is apparently quite good.
>
> "DeezNutz" <hugvgvgvy@vhhvwhv9v.com> wrote in message
> news:YbYTa.113201$EQ5.108958@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> >
> > "Gary Carson"
> >
> >
> > Who are you anyway??
>
>

[Gary Carson]

LOL
ROFLMAO

On 24 Jul 2003 21:57:49 GMT, "Bennett Niizawa"
<beandoggerel@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Jul 24 2003 7:30AM, DeezNutz wrote:
>
>> "Gary Carson"
>>
>>
>> Who are you anyway??
>
>I believe he authored the phrase, "All you need is a grilled cheese
>sandwich and a chair."
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com
>
>

[BANKROLLONSWOLL]

"> I believe he authored the phrase, "All you need is a grilled cheese
> sandwich and a chair."
>
WHAT ABOUT HEINEIKEN? DON'T DEADHEADS NEED HEINEIKEN? I COULD NEVER
UNDERSTAND HOW A STANK ASS HAIRY ASS DEGENERATE MUTHERFUCKER HIGH ON
MUSHROOMS WHILE WALKING THE IMAGINARY DOG LOOKING FOR GAS MONEY FOR HIS
BROKE ASS VW BUS COULD AFFORD TO GET IN A DEAD SHOW LET ALONE SHOW UP WITH A
HEINEIKEN IN HIS HAND. I WAS THE CLEAN CUT KID PISSING ON HIM WHILE LOOKING
FOR A DIME TO GO BACK TO SURBURBIA AND SMOKE BY THE WAY. NO WONDER THEY
WOULD TRY TO SELL GRILLED CHEESE SANDWICHES. I WONDER WHAT WAS IN THOSE
NASTY LOOKING THINGS ANYWAY. PROBABLY ALOT OF FOUL CONTENT. GARY WERE YOU
THE GUY I WAS PISSING ON?? SORRY

[vehn]

On Jul 24 2003 10:15AM, Sweet Melissa wrote:

> He wrote "The Complete Book of Hold 'Em Poker: A Comprehensive Guide to
> Playing and Winning", which is apparently quite good.

And yet he spends his time playing crapshoot freerolls on Pokerstars.

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com

[A. Prock]

According to BANKROLLONSWOLL <inthecut@dahood.com>:
>I BET YOU ARE WHITE

Heh,

I went to www.dahood.com. Christian Personals!

- Andrew

--
http://www.pokerstove.com

[Lou Krieger]

>> "DeezNutz" <hbdhhvav@fvhshbshbp.com> wrote in message
news:yMXTa.113043$EQ5.78160@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

ook, well aside from the betting limits being different, what is the major
difference seen at a 10/20 table compared to a 20/40 table? gary, don't
reply as i have heard you only play 3/6 and under... <<

The trouble with $10-$20 games is that they are played with five-dollar
chips and the pots just don't look that big. A $20-$40 game, also played
with five-dollar chips plays looser as a general rule, because more chips
are in the pots and they look so much bigger. One reason casinos in
California has gone to $9-$18 games is that with a smaller denomination
chip, the pots look a lot bigger to the casual viewer -- as well as the
dedicated "gambler" -- than they really are. And because they "look"
bigger, they often become bigger.

Marshall MacLuhan wrote, "We become what we behold." He may never have
thought about poker when he said this, but he's apparently more correct than
he might have suspected.

This may not be logical to most savvy RGPers, but it seems to be the "what
is" reality.

[Mark Harman]

>>thanks, but what is

> They make the classic "tenth best player in the world playing with the
nine
> better players" mistake.

this all about?<<

He doesn't realize he's the worst player at the table.

Mark Harman

[Dave L]

"DeezNutz" <hugvgvgvy@vhhvwhv9v.com> wrote in message
news:EYXTa.113103$EQ5.37381@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> thanks, but what is
>
> > They make the classic "tenth best player in the world playing with the
> nine
> > better players" mistake.
>
> this all about?
>
>

If you look around the table, and can't spot the fish, you're it.

[accountant]

> The cardroom I play in now sometimes has very wild 10/20 O8 games --
> loose and aggresive.
>

Ever think about writing an Omaha 8 book? The Holdem book was excellent.

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com

[Gary Carson]

On 25 Jul 2003 06:37:45 GMT, "accountant" <anonymous@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> The cardroom I play in now sometimes has very wild 10/20 O8 games
--
>> loose and aggresive.
>>
>
>Ever think about writing an Omaha 8 book? The Holdem book was
excellent.

Thanks.

I think the market would be pretty small. The book I'm doing now has
a chapter on Omaha/8.

[RTN4]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:59:37 GMT, "Lou Krieger" <loukrieger@dc.rr.com>
wrote:

>The trouble with $10-$20 games is that they are played with five-dollar
>chips and the pots just don't look that big.

This explanation has always baffled me. People that play those games
don't care what the pot looks like.

[Gary Carson]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 18:28:34 -0700, RTN4 <RTN4f@charter.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:59:37 GMT, "Lou Krieger"
<loukrieger@dc.rr.com>
>wrote:
>
>>The trouble with $10-$20 games is that they are played with
five-dollar
>>chips and the pots just don't look that big.
>
>This explanation has always baffled me. People that play those games
>don't care what the pot looks like.

Yes they do.

The other night I was playing in a 5-25 stud game then moved to a
10/20 omaha/8 game. I had a bunch of green chips. The players at the
10/20 game hated it, the pots didn't look right when I put a green
chip in.

When players at any limit estimate pot size they usually just look at
the pot and see if it looks physically big. A pot with a lot of chips
is a big pot, they have odds to call.

Everything else being equal, players are probably more likely to call
a bet on a draw in a 20/40 game and also be more aggresive in a 20/40
game, and both simply because the pots look bigger.

Of course, everything else is seldom equal.

[Ken M]

I play 10-20 all the time and the pots look big to me.

[Russ Georgiev]

"DeezNutz" <hbdhhvav@fvhshbshbp.com> wrote in message news:<XlXTa.112911$EQ5.91834@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
> JacksonFive wrote:
>
> For those that play 10/20, 15/30, and 20/40 regularly and at various
> locales, can you give me, in some detail, the major differences between
> the limits? Is the play at 10/20 generally significantly different from
> the play a 20/40? How so and how consistently? As some sort of
> indication, can you give me an example of a mistake commonly seen at 10/20
> that is rarely seen at 20/40? Where does 15/30 fit into this? Thank you
> to anyone who takes the time to answer this.



Improving Your Game

Holdem has easily become the most popular poker game today. Among the
reasons, simplicity compared to other games, the speed of the game and
the amount the casinos can drop. Most players want to advance to a
higher level of play, but have these players ever thought about the
major differences in games at the levels?

At lower limits more players gamble and see the flop. Most of these
people are learning and the books tell them about small pairs, suited
connectors and the rest of the spiel. All of this is fine at these
levels. Players at the small limits, $1-$2 through $4-$8 will find
there isn't much difference between a winning player in any of these
levels. At best the difference in play is minimal and can easily be
adjusted with a little more playing experience or work on their game.

The next level you attain is the $6-$12-$9-$18 games. Even at these
levels, play isn't that dramatically different. Since you're playing
for more money, obviously a far larger bankroll is needed in order to
play comfortably. But whatever limits you play you will learn these
games will change and many won't understand why they aren't winning
anymore. First it isn't as easy to beat poker games at any limit as
people say. Many factors enter the picture, the number one factor in
small limits is the drop or the rake. If anyone decides to do an
analysis, they should be able to see how much these drops or rakes
take out of the games. This will put the persons playing performance
in to a realistic reality. You will realize that many bad players are
needed to support the ones that do win and also the drop.

The differences in play between the levels I have mentioned, among
those who beat these games isn't that different. In fact, your
bankroll or discipline along with the time needed to acquire more
money to play may be the only factor. Anyone playing or stating they
play these levels for a living, are not making much. Obviously you can
make a few dollars an hour playing these games if you are patient,
play better starting hands and really put a qualified attempt to learn
and win at these games. The type of action is basically the same and
most of these players are recreational. Thinking you will be making a
living off these games is basically ridiculous. At best you could call
it an existence.

Advancing out of the ranks of these games is a players first major
hurdle. We have now reached the $10-$20 and $15-$30 games. Here is
where you encounter your first major difference in play and in
players. This is where you will start finding legitimate
professionals, though at the smaller end of the scale. The play in
these games becomes more difficult because more players are really
trying to win. Here you will encounter a base or percentage of players
that actually do play for a living. The games will be different
because the number of players seeing the flop will start greatly
diminishing. Don't be under the impression it is easy to win $20 an
hour in a $10-$20 game, for this isn't true. Obviously many will claim
they make this and more, but I want to know how long they have been
doing this? If they can do this, most will attempt higher levels as it
is only reasonable the higher you play, the more you can make,
provided you can beat the level.

At the basic entry level for professional poker players the games will
be far different from the one at the smaller limits you just left.
Fewer players see the flop, players become more aggressive and overall
ability is far higher than what you have experienced in the beginning
or starter levels. Most winning players at this level are your basic
tight, aggressive players, needing value from the those weaker ones
who are also there for entertainment, more than for any other reason.

Your next step in moving up the ladder is reaching the $20-$40,
$30-$60, $40-$80 plateau. Here is where the players can start earning
$50,000 a year and more. At this level perhaps 50% of the players are
professionals or small winners. At this level the play starts to get
far more aggressive and fewer players see the flop than in the levels
lower. Here is where you can start earning a decent living as it is
possible to achieve a 6 figure income from the higher end of this
level.

The caliber of play for professionals at this level can be described
as good, aggressive. The basic weakness of the pros playing here is
the lack of one on one experience. Games at these levels differ from
some parts of the country to the next. A Vegas game at this level is
far different from a California game at this level. The key difference
being the worst players for this level are in Vegas overall, while the
best are in California. Before we misunderstand what I have stated,
realize I am not stating the pros are worse in one place or the other.
I am stating the losers in the game are worse players in Vegas than
California.

This is the reason and it will be hard to disagree. Vegas is a tourist
town and in order for the games to go they need tourists. The Vegas
pro's are adapted for these players and more of these are from places
that don't have regular card rooms around. The basic loser in Vegas
can be described as weak passive. This type of player is a
professional players delight. He doesn't get value when he makes a
hand and you get to extract full value when you do. These players are
usually not accustomed to playing in card rooms and most are more
timid than aggressive. The pro's are more aware of each other and give
each other the respect and these players are more methodically beaten.

Now you come to the California games. Here you will not find many
tourists. Most of the players are regulars, be they fish or
professional. Aggressiveness is far higher in California games and the
worst players in California would have an easy time beating the worst
player tourists in Nevada, mainly because of the aggressive nature of
the game. Because fewer raises are allowed in California, the ram and
jam type game can be quite lively. Fluctuations are far higher in
California games and beating them is really much harder to do than the
Vegas games. But in both places, you must adapt to the play.

The next level you attempt to attain is the most difficult in poker.
Being able to beat $75-$150, $80-$160 up to $200-$400 and above puts
you close if not into world class poker. This is where people can earn
serious money. This is where the caliber of player changes
dramatically. The main difference in these games, the very low
percentage of players seeing the flop and the aggressiveness of the
players. You won't find your limpers in these games, or not for long
anyway, for they will be disposed of. At these levels most action
become heads up with the opener raising only to find himself 3 bet
from behind to rid the blinds out of the action. He then finds himself
in heads up situations without position. He had better have the right
starting hands, as this is normal procedure in these games. These
games typically have more heads up action and three betting. If you
are in the blinds, many times you realize you can't play the hands you
would have played in the lower levels. At these levels, small pocket
pairs are basically throw away, especially when opening. Limping in
will get you broke or put down into lower levels quickly. Tight,
aggressive and tricky are used to describe the pro's playing these
limits. Many of these players are potential world class.

You won't see the limping in you see at other levels, you won't be
seeing the small pocket pairs played at other levels. All you will see
is more aggressiveness than you have ever encountered, more value
betting and constant pressure put upon you. Position is key here, as
most play is heads up. Opening weak and having a person call behind
you is not the usual. Three betting to isolate with position is. Most
pots are heads-up, many are just passed when raised. Doubtful if these
games produce 20% of the players seeing the flops. Those playing 20%
won't be at this level for long, this is far to loose. We are talking
full ring game holdem. Try playing your small pairs and raising. You
will find you are either 3 bet and out of position or ending up with
the blind or facing it. The value is not there. Those able to maintain
discipline and out read the opposition will prevail. One on one play
is the norm, betting is the key to making the money at this level.

The next level is the definitive to becoming a world class player.
These games become short handed. Those able to beat these people
playing short can be the kings of poker. Making 200k and up is the
norm for these players. Play here is basically one on one in most pots
with great play and pressure constantly applied. Many of these players
become specialists at holdem, the key to them becoming truly world
class is conquering the other games also. Short handed players will
dominate. Speed or aggression when properly controlled will be the
deciding factor on who wins. The cream reaches the top far faster
playing short handed poker than ring game poker. More hands must be
played and constant confrontations never end. While you may not play a
hand for an hour in a ring game, it is impossible to do this playing
short handed. A ring game may be compared to a boxing match, while
short handed will be compared to Ultimate fighting.

The people that master short handed play, first mastered ring game
play. After mastering short handed play, motivation for ring game play
leaves people. More money and less boring playing short handed.

Those mastering the most games, especially short handed are the best
or the cream of the crop. Almost everything you know about playing low
limit poker is basically useless in higher levels. You want value, go
to Walmart. All you will find at the top levels is aggressiveness you
have never encountered before and if you can't counter this or attack
with abilities to equal the oppositions, you will find yourself
dropping.

Summary

You will learn how little value small pairs have playing high limits.
You will find what suited connectors are worth. You will find out
quickly what happens to limpers. You will find a game you have never
seen before. You will find out holdem is a game of big cards. You will
find out the worth of kickers. You will realize there really aren't
that many who can do this.

Russ Georgiev

[RTN4]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 02:10:47 GMT, garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu
(Gary Carson) wrote:

>The other night I was playing in a 5-25 stud game then moved to a
>10/20 omaha/8 game. I had a bunch of green chips. The players at the
>10/20 game hated it, the pots didn't look right when I put a green
>chip in.

They didn't hate the green chip; they hated you.