Re: Dutch Boyd: The 2003 World Series of Poker Highlight.

[La Ciclon]

Next year? Sheeeit. If you've got a wallet or money in a bank, watch out
for Dutch...period. The man's a thief (pokerspot.com).

La Ciclon



"James Thompson" <james_thompson99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bf1efec6.0308130539.6b30d90e@posting.google.com...
> He makes for great TV......especially his line about poker being like
> sex.....classic.
>
> Watch out for Dutch next year....!

[Mister Poker]

I just want to say one more time for the record that I never stole any
money. I don't deny being a bad businessman and not being able to protect
a thriving company from going down... pokerspot was not the only cardroom
to collapse with player's money in it, and it won't be the last.

Dutch

On Aug 13 2003 5:01AM, La Ciclon wrote:

> Next year? Sheeeit. If you've got a wallet or money in a bank, watch out
> for Dutch...period. The man's a thief (pokerspot.com).
>
> La Ciclon
>
>
>
> "James Thompson" <james_thompson99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:bf1efec6.0308130539.6b30d90e@posting.google.com...
> > He makes for great TV......especially his line about poker being like
> > sex.....classic.
> >
> > Watch out for Dutch next year....!

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com

[Gary Carson]

On 14 Aug 2003 01:10:06 GMT, "Mister Poker" <anonymous@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I just want to say one more time for the record that I never stole
any
>money.

Yes, you did.

> I don't deny being a bad businessman and not being able to protect
>a thriving company from going down... pokerspot was not the only
cardroom
>to collapse with player's money in it, and it won't be the last.

You stole the money to attempt to keep your business afloat. You did
that by accepting deposits you knew you couldn't pay off, hopinig that
you'd get lucky and be able to pay them off in the distant future.

That makes you a theif. If you rob a convience store you don't get to
say you didn't really steal it becuase you spent the money on a pair
of shoes but the shoes didn't fit.

You are an unrepentant thief.

[Mister Poker]

On Aug 13 2003 6:56PM, Gary Carson wrote:

> On 14 Aug 2003 01:10:06 GMT, "Mister Poker" <anonymous@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> You stole the money to attempt to keep your business afloat. You did
> that by accepting deposits you knew you couldn't pay off, hopinig that
> you'd get lucky and be able to pay them off in the distant future.

You're wrong. We didn't know the player deposits weren't going to be
honored by our ecommerce company.

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com

[Gary Carson]

On 14 Aug 2003 06:23:54 GMT, "Mister Poker" <anonymous@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Aug 13 2003 6:56PM, Gary Carson wrote:
>
>> On 14 Aug 2003 01:10:06 GMT, "Mister Poker" <anonymous@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> You stole the money to attempt to keep your business afloat. You
did
>> that by accepting deposits you knew you couldn't pay off, hopinig
that
>> you'd get lucky and be able to pay them off in the distant future.
>
>You're wrong. We didn't know the player deposits weren't going to be
>honored by our ecommerce company.
>

You comingled their funds and tried to cover your cashflow shortage
with player deposits.

You had a cashflow shortage because you didn't have any fraud
controls.

You're a theif. Maybe it was just some kind of delusional behavior on
your part that caused you to steal, but you're still a theif.

[greatbrit]

Mister Poker wrote:

> I just want to say one more time for the record that I never stole
> any money....

Even if that were true:

2/15/01:
....We are prepared to go to any length to satisfy our players,
including selling the cardroom and proprietary software outright, though
we do not believe it will come to that...

Russ Boyd
President, Pokerspot.com

11/14/02:
....The site went down soon after, and closed following the sale of the
assets to a large online casino whose name everyone would recognize.
NDAs prevent me from giving out any information about the deal, but I
can say that it would have enabled us to pay everyone off and receive a
good chunk of money ourselves. The deal fell through three months after
we signed what I still believe is a binding contract... after we ditched
the leases on our apartments, dumped our girlfriends, sold everything we
owned that wouldn't fit into a plane, and moved to Montreal. Instead
of offering us the initial price we agreed on, they told us that they
were only willing to give us a few hundred thousand for all of our
assets and that they were no longer interested in paying off players.
We walked.

Russ Boyd

[NWBurbsCouple]

>fter we ditched
>the leases on our apartments, dumped our girlfriends,

Interesting. You ditched the leases, huh? Most ethical people would get out
of leases legally.

You dumped the girlfriends, huh? Most people would try to carry on
long-distance relationships.

But the comments are telling. Legal documents (like leases) are meant to be
broken, and emotional committments (like girlfriends) are meant to be broken --
as long as there is money in it for you.

It's often said that one of the difficulties of children going to college at
young ages (like 12) is that they never get a chance to emotionally mature.
Sounds like a classic case here.

[Gary Carson]

On 14 Aug 2003 06:11:38 -0700, willreich_77@yahoo.com (Bill Reich)

>
>I got a bounced check from them ($550) for my first-ever tournament
>win. They were not, at that time, clearly going down the tubes. They
>did pay me the money in a few (seemed a LOT longer then) weeks,
>including money to take care of what the bank had charged me. I was
>satisfied that I had not been swindled but I stopped playing there. I
>don't think that they were thieves at that time, that Dutch was a
>thief, I think that they were incompetent.

The reason your check bounced was that they didn't have any working
capitol. The float on credit card deposits was a lot more than Boyd
had anticipated. He was having to use todays deposits to cover
yesterday's float so he could pay off withdrawels. He was basically
kiting checks. Sometimes check kiters will have a check bounce
because it clears faster than they had anticipated. A check kiter
who's getting fresh money coming in though is able to cover those
bounced checks for a while.

He thought he could keep his head above water, although he was
commiting financial frauds to do it, until his credit card processor
froze his assets with them. I'm not positive, but pretty sure, that
Boyds failure to guard against credit card frauds was a big reason for
them freezing his assets. It probably wasn't the only reason.

Until then he'd been a crook but though of himself as a businessman.
At that point he became an active theif, accepting deposits that he
knew he couldn't make good and actively lying to customers.

According to his story about the sale he could have gone threw with
the sale and paid off some of his customers if he'd been willing to
walk away without any money of his own. But, he wasn't willing to do
that -- he wanted his skim.



> That is easy enough for me
>to believe because I have seen staid, superficially respectable
>institutions pull bonehead maneuvers that could easily gotten them
>charged with being thieves and known that the people involved were
>merely idjits.

Yes, even honest organizations make stupid mistakes. But, that's not
what happened with Boyd.

>Later on, when it was clear that they COULD make a ton of money from
>online poker and that they could only do this if they survived a few
>more months, they did imprudent things and took risks with other
>people's money that they should not have taken.

They did that from the git-go. They didn't have the working capitol
to operate, the float on credit card charges is very high. They used
player deposits to cover that float.

> I think that calling
>Dutch a thief (or a theif in Tejas or Lousiana) is a little harsh.
but
>only a little.

I don't think it's harsh at all.

> Delusional behavior comes closer to what I think
>happened.

There is a book written back in the 1950's called Other People's
Money. It uses interviews of people convicted of white collar crimes,
mostly embezzlement to document that delusional thinking is almost
always a component in embezzlement.



Or rather, thievery happened as a result of delusional
>behavior. It is always to be hoped that a person learns from his or
>her experiences and I would, should Dutch get involved in another
>online poker deal, as likely put fifty or a hundred bucks on account
>there as any other online site.

Dutch is clearly still engaing in delusional thinking. He blames
everybody else for causing his thefts. They made him do it by being
slow processing his credit card funds or by not offereing him enough
cash in the buyout. It was all their fault, he didn't do anything
wrong.

He hasn't learned anything. He still thinks like a thief. He still
is a theif.

[Mister Poker]

Jesus christ... now I'm getting slammed for breaking up with a girlfriend?

On Aug 14 2003 2:45AM, NWBurbsCouple wrote:

> >fter we ditched
> >the leases on our apartments, dumped our girlfriends,
>
> Interesting. You ditched the leases, huh? Most ethical people would get out
> of leases legally.
>
> You dumped the girlfriends, huh? Most people would try to carry on
> long-distance relationships.
>
> But the comments are telling. Legal documents (like leases) are meant to be
> broken, and emotional committments (like girlfriends) are meant to be broken
--
> as long as there is money in it for you.
>
> It's often said that one of the difficulties of children going to college at
> young ages (like 12) is that they never get a chance to emotionally mature.
> Sounds like a classic case here.

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com

[Gary Carson]

On 15 Aug 2003 03:19:17 GMT, "Mister Poker" <anonymous@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Jesus christ... now I'm getting slammed for breaking up with a
girlfriend?

It's just that most people use the term girlfriend to refer to a woman
we have at least some sense of emotinonal commitment to.

That's idea of commitment just seems to be one that's missing from
your makeup.

What in the world does it mean to "take over poker"?

[The Beet Man]

On 14 Aug 2003 06:23:54 GMT, "Mister Poker" <anonymous@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Aug 13 2003 6:56PM, Gary Carson wrote:
>
>> On 14 Aug 2003 01:10:06 GMT, "Mister Poker" <anonymous@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> You stole the money to attempt to keep your business afloat. You did
>> that by accepting deposits you knew you couldn't pay off, hopinig that
>> you'd get lucky and be able to pay them off in the distant future.
>
>You're wrong. We didn't know the player deposits weren't going to be
>honored by our ecommerce company.

Lying about checks being "in the mail" isn't the work of a thief, it's
simply the work of a "bad businessman?" You told me two specific
dates that my check was mailed, when you knew damn well no check had
been mailed.

[Amy]

"Mister Poker" <anonymous@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3f3ae16e$0$63803$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>...
> I just want to say one more time for the record that I never stole any
> money. I don't deny being a bad businessman and not being able to protect
> a thriving company from going down... pokerspot was not the only cardroom
> to collapse with player's money in it, and it won't be the last.
>
> Dutch
>

I'm assuming you contacted an attorney after all of this happened.
What did she advise you to do? Just curious.

Amy

[Dennis Altman]

Nor will I and I can speak for Irish Mike too.

lvdlrs wrote:
>
>
> Bill Reich much too kindly wrote:
>
>> It is always to be hoped that a person learns from his or
>> her experiences and I would, should Dutch get involved in another
>> online poker deal, as likely put fifty or a hundred bucks on account
>> there as any other online site. I don't risk large sums online for a
>> number of reasons but my 'sperience at PokerSpot isn't one of them. Or
>> not a major one.
>
>
> I can honestly say that I will never place any money into a
> Dutch Boyd run online poker site, never.
>
> Gary (...) Philips
>

[Perry Friedman]

In article <20030816105149.21868.00000537@mb-m07.aol.com>,
AlwaysAware <alwaysaware@aol.com> wrote:
>>From: "Mister Poker"
>
>>I just want to say one more time for the record that I never stole any
>>money.
>
>OK, I'll bite. Did you steal anythign else, like say knowledge? You were the
>first to have viable tournament software and now you have made a score in the
>WSOP. Did you review, study,or run hand histories through "poker tracker type
>devices" of players on your site that were winning tournament players?
>
>Joan


BTW, this is pretty interesting, and I hadn't thought about it before.
But if you see the chat I posted, Russ says
I hacked poker.
Find out what I did two years ago.

I am wondering if he is talking about exactly that. About analyzing the play
on PokerSpot and trying to use that to help with his play.

Perry

[Gary Carson]

he probably did

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:45:11 +0000 (UTC), friedman@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
(Perry Friedman) wrote:

>In article <20030816105149.21868.00000537@mb-m07.aol.com>,
>AlwaysAware <alwaysaware@aol.com> wrote:
>>>From: "Mister Poker"
>>
>>>I just want to say one more time for the record that I never stole
any
>>>money.
>>
>>OK, I'll bite. Did you steal anythign else, like say knowledge?
You were the
>>first to have viable tournament software and now you have made a
score in the
>>WSOP. Did you review, study,or run hand histories through "poker
tracker type
>>devices" of players on your site that were winning tournament
players?
>>
>>Joan
>
>
>BTW, this is pretty interesting, and I hadn't thought about it
before.
>But if you see the chat I posted, Russ says
> I hacked poker.
> Find out what I did two years ago.
>
>I am wondering if he is talking about exactly that. About analyzing
the play
>on PokerSpot and trying to use that to help with his play.
>
>Perry

[susan]

isn't this what Roy Cooke admitted to doing?

"Gary Carson" <garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:3f4130ea.16543066@news.mindspring.com...
> he probably did
>
> On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:45:11 +0000 (UTC), friedman@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
> (Perry Friedman) wrote:
>
> >In article <20030816105149.21868.00000537@mb-m07.aol.com>,
> >AlwaysAware <alwaysaware@aol.com> wrote:
> >>>From: "Mister Poker"
> >>
> >>>I just want to say one more time for the record that I never stole
> any
> >>>money.
> >>
> >>OK, I'll bite. Did you steal anythign else, like say knowledge?
> You were the
> >>first to have viable tournament software and now you have made a
> score in the
> >>WSOP. Did you review, study,or run hand histories through "poker
> tracker type
> >>devices" of players on your site that were winning tournament
> players?
> >>
> >>Joan
> >
> >
> >BTW, this is pretty interesting, and I hadn't thought about it
> before.
> >But if you see the chat I posted, Russ says
> > I hacked poker.
> > Find out what I did two years ago.
> >
> >I am wondering if he is talking about exactly that. About analyzing
> the play
> >on PokerSpot and trying to use that to help with his play.
> >
> >Perry
>

[Gary Carson]

yes

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:08:02 GMT, "susan"
<sdbratt48@NOSPAMnetscape.net> wrote:

>isn't this what Roy Cooke admitted to doing?
>
>"Gary Carson" <garycarson@alumni.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
>news:3f4130ea.16543066@news.mindspring.com...
>> he probably did
>>
>> On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:45:11 +0000 (UTC),
friedman@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
>> (Perry Friedman) wrote:
>>
>> >In article <20030816105149.21868.00000537@mb-m07.aol.com>,
>> >AlwaysAware <alwaysaware@aol.com> wrote:
>> >>>From: "Mister Poker"
>> >>
>> >>>I just want to say one more time for the record that I never
stole
>> any
>> >>>money.
>> >>
>> >>OK, I'll bite. Did you steal anythign else, like say knowledge?
>> You were the
>> >>first to have viable tournament software and now you have made a
>> score in the
>> >>WSOP. Did you review, study,or run hand histories through "poker
>> tracker type
>> >>devices" of players on your site that were winning tournament
>> players?
>> >>
>> >>Joan
>> >
>> >
>> >BTW, this is pretty interesting, and I hadn't thought about it
>> before.
>> >But if you see the chat I posted, Russ says
>> > I hacked poker.
>> > Find out what I did two years ago.
>> >
>> >I am wondering if he is talking about exactly that. About
analyzing
>> the play
>> >on PokerSpot and trying to use that to help with his play.
>> >
>> >Perry
>>
>
>