AQ hand question

[frockc]

Playing 8/16 at the bellagio only been in the game for an hour and I
get AQoff
second from the blinds... I raise and only the big blind calls...
Flop : A Q J all clubs
He checks, I bet he calls
Turn : 10 of clubs
He bets, I think and fold my hand face up... He then flashes me and
ace but not the other card... I most likely think he had a club
because if he had really bluffed me he would probably would have shown
both cards... I was thinking he just wanted me to think he was
bluffing... Just wondering if I should have called or what... I was
thinking that I should either raise or fold but being kinda of a low
limit game I wouldn't think he would try and bluff into the raiser...
not sure though... Thanks

[Jason Root]

Not much else you can do there... you saved yourself at least $32 by
getting away from it right then. Chance are he had the 7,8 or 9c maybe
even the K.. who knows. But if 4 to a flush is on the table and u don't
have any of it. you'd have needed an A or Q on the River to have a shot..
and even then you could have gotten beat by the Royal.. in which case
you'd have lost quite a bit.

Just my opinion.. i'm sure others would have at least called the Turn..
but
I myself wouldn't have wanted to take the chance.



On Aug 13 2003 3:35PM, frockc wrote:

> Playing 8/16 at the bellagio only been in the game for an hour and I
> get AQoff
> second from the blinds... I raise and only the big blind calls...
> Flop : A Q J all clubs
> He checks, I bet he calls
> Turn : 10 of clubs
> He bets, I think and fold my hand face up... He then flashes me and
> ace but not the other card... I most likely think he had a club
> because if he had really bluffed me he would probably would have shown
> both cards... I was thinking he just wanted me to think he was
> bluffing... Just wondering if I should have called or what... I was
> thinking that I should either raise or fold but being kinda of a low
> limit game I wouldn't think he would try and bluff into the raiser...
> not sure though... Thanks

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[steve]

>maybe even the K

If he has a club its the 9 or lower, no way he shows an ace and not the
royal! i think with 4 outs to a boat and probably 1 or 2 or more clubs
to a split i would have raised his bet as a semi bluff. if he plays back
i call if he calls he'll most likely check to you on the river. a little
more info on whether this guy is an imaginative or straightforward
player would have helped.

that 4th club and also straight draw is a scare card so he may bet into
the raiser and fold to a raise, saves him money instead of checking and
calling til the river. i would have bet into you in this situation and
reraised if you raised.
but as i said you didn't specify what type of player he is

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[Peter Lizak]

On 13 Aug 2003, frockc wrote:

> Playing 8/16 at the bellagio only been in the game for an hour and I
> get AQoff
> second from the blinds... I raise and only the big blind calls...
> Flop : A Q J all clubs
> He checks, I bet he calls
> Turn : 10 of clubs
> He bets, I think and fold my hand face up... He then flashes me and
> ace but not the other card... I most likely think he had a club
> because if he had really bluffed me he would probably would have shown
> both cards... I was thinking he just wanted me to think he was
> bluffing... Just wondering if I should have called or what... I was
> thinking that I should either raise or fold but being kinda of a low
> limit game I wouldn't think he would try and bluff into the raiser...
> not sure though... Thanks

probably a good fold.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Lizak
plizak@math.uwaterloo.ca
Scientific Computing Lab, University of Waterloo

[Nobody]

"frockc" <ccrd78@mizzou.edu> wrote in message
news:1ff069f7.0308131435.8eff97d@posting.google.com...
> Turn : 10 of clubs
> He bets, I think and fold my hand face up...

Sorry, but I think the fold on the turn is a very bad play. You have 4 outs
to a full house. You have several more outs to a board flush and very
possible split pot. And you may in fact have had the best hand at the turn.
This is a classic weak-tight mistake, IMHO, especially in a head-up
situation.

You can't give pots away this easily, especially head-up and when you may be
ahead. He could have been calling with darn near anything from the BB. I
think your better play would have been to raise on the turn. Then if he
re-raises, you are probably second-best, though you still pay to see the
river.

For me, if I know that I can push you off of a pot this easily, then I'm
going to be firing "bullets" at you all night long.

> He then flashes me and
> ace but not the other card...

IMHO, this is usually a sign of something stronger (e.g., a club in this
case).

If he was indeed stronger, and knew it for sure, then he almost surely would
have check-raised you head up on the turn. He knows you are strong by the
early position pre-flop raise and betting that flop. But he is not
absolutely sure of having you beat, hence the check and call on the flop,
instead of the check-raise. Although, depending on what he had, he may have
been better off with the check-raise anyway.

For what it's worth, I think if a player flashes you one card, then you are
entitled to ask the dealer to ask the player to show the other as well.
Probably this varies by room, but it never hurts to ask, especially if you
are still trying to nail down this player's habits.

At any rate, my guess is that he had at most a weak club, for a non-nut
flush. It is also very possible that he semi-bluffed you off the pot with
second-best hand. If so, good play by him, but bad play by you for not
semi-bluff raising right back at him.

[frockc]

Thanks for the advice... I probably posted it because I thought I
could have played it bettter... Like I said in the original post I
only had been there for an hour and not seen him play many hands... I
have been playing this game alot this summer and tend not to see many
players capable of bluffing there... The usual player in the game bets
into you when he or she improves her hand fearing that no one will
bet... I would have to say also that this was the last hand I was
playing before I had to leave and maybe being up 100 in the back of my
mind I was saying o well I'll just leave up a hundred... Thanks again
for the replys.

[Seth Partnow]

> If he was indeed stronger, and knew it for sure, then he almost surely would
> have check-raised you head up on the turn. He knows you are strong by the
> early position pre-flop raise and betting that flop. But he is not
> absolutely sure of having you beat, hence the check and call on the flop,
> instead of the check-raise. Although, depending on what he had, he may have
> been better off with the check-raise anyway.
>
Nah, if it's 8-16, I don't think I check raise the flop, I want to
draw in the big bet. And I think if he had it, he checks the turn as
well. You were more likely to bet after a check then call a bet,
IMHO, so if he has it, he wants that bet. I think the raise-call is
probably the right play. Might cost you a bit, but you still have at
least 5-7 outs even if he has it, and his play indicates AJ to me
(though it could well have been AK (not club), but that's a dumb bet
on his part, as the only action he gets is by already being beaten. My
opinion is AJ, but that's just me.


Cheers,
SP

[Joe Long]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:12:24 GMT, "Nobody" <nobody@spamstop.com>
wrote:

>"frockc" <ccrd78@mizzou.edu> wrote in message
>news:1ff069f7.0308131435.8eff97d@posting.google.com...
>> Turn : 10 of clubs
>> He bets, I think and fold my hand face up...

>Sorry, but I think the fold on the turn is a very bad play. You have 4 outs
>to a full house. You have several more outs to a board flush and very
>possible split pot. And you may in fact have had the best hand at the turn.
>This is a classic weak-tight mistake, IMHO, especially in a head-up
>situation.

I disagree, at least without knowing more about the player. He
check-called the flop, then came out firing when the fourth club hits
-- knowing the preflop raiser (you) is likely to have a set, straight,
or the flush himself. If he didn't just catch the flush, that's a
pretty aggressive move.

So, assuming he has the flush, you have only four outs to win (and
with THAT board, he might even have a straight flush). Another club
on the river is likely to be lower than his, so you can't count on
drawing to half the pot that way.

>You can't give pots away this easily, especially head-up and when you may be
>ahead. He could have been calling with darn near anything from the BB. I
>think your better play would have been to raise on the turn. Then if he
>re-raises, you are probably second-best, though you still pay to see the
>river.

And if you do that 1000 times, you'll win a few big ones and lose
more.

>For me, if I know that I can push you off of a pot this easily, then I'm
>going to be firing "bullets" at you all night long.

That's a good reason to not fold face-up. OTOH, if I lay down my hand
in that situation, I hope I *do* inspire people to come after me in
future hands! You don't often face boards that offered so many ways
to have just been sucked out on.

To sum up: IMO a good laydown, one most players would not have been
able to make.

--

Joe Long
jlong (at) rnbw (dot) com