Online poker is not rigged

[countlesshands]

I have no affiliation whatsoever with any online site.


I play online 20-30 hours a week. My expection online,between
one-half to one bb/hour, for stakes between 2-4 and 20-40, after three
years of play, is reasonably close to my b+m expectation for stakes
between 10-20 and 20-40. I win consistently at Paradise, Pokerstars,
UltimateBet, Party, and Truepoker. Based on my results and experience
on all of these sites, I conclude that the games are fair, and that
collusion is minimal. I make no claims for games above 20-40, nor the
15-30 Party games, because I have not played them.


Following is my Pokerstat database, presented as supporting evidence
for my assertion that online poker is not rigged:



Total hands you were dealt cards: 182149

All suited starters dealt: 42961 (23.59%)
All suited starters expected: 42859 (23.5%)

All connected starters dealt: 28445 (15.62%)
All connected starters expected: 28572 (15.7%)

Suited connector starters dealt: 7163 (3.93%)
Suited connector starters expected: 7143 (3.92%)

Paired starters dealt: 10734 (5.893%)
Paired starters expected: 10715 (5.88%)

AKo dealt: 1660 (0.911%)
AKo expected: 1648 (0.905%)

AKs dealt: 530 (0.291%)
AKs expected: 549 (0.302%)

Any AK dealt: 2190 (1.202%)
Any AK expected: 2198 (1.21%)

A's dealt: 824 (0.452%)
K's dealt: 859 (0.472%)
Q's dealt: 861 (0.473%)
J's dealt: 813 (0.446%)
T's dealt: 827 (0.454%)
9's dealt: 778 (0.427%)
8's dealt: 837 (0.460%)
7's dealt: 810 (0.445%)
6's dealt: 847 (0.465%)
5's dealt: 794 (0.436%)
4's dealt: 842 (0.462%)
3's dealt: 859 (0.472%)
2's dealt: 783 (0.430%)
Each pair expected: 824 (0.452%)


(Note that only data for hands where a flop was dealt and you
were dealt cards preflop are used. Hands where no flop was dealt
are skipped.)

Total hands you were dealt cards: 182149
Times a flop dealt when you were dealt cards: 165478 (90.85%)

When user dealt AK, flops at least one A or K: 677 (33.20%)
expected: 661 (32.4%)

USER HAS ANY TWO SUITED CARDS (dealt 39171 times):
Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
3 flush: 16278 (41.56%) expected: 16290 (41.6%)
4 flush: 4287 (10.94%) expected: 4287 (10.9%)
5 flush: 326 (0.83%) expected: 330 (0.842%)
Three cards on the flop make up a:
3 straight: 1296 (3.31%) expected: 1248 (3.18%)
2 flush: 21657 (55.29%) expected: 21590 (55.1%)
3 flush: 2109 (5.38%) expected: 2044 (05.22%)
any pair: 6693 (17.09%) expected: 6631 (16.9%)
Hand user flops:
High card: 20527 (52.4%) expected: 20613 (52.6%)
Pair: 15871 (40.5%) expected: 15828 (40.4%)
Two pair: 1625 (4.15%) expected: 1583 (4.04%)
3 of a kind: 624 (1.59%) expected: 616 (1.57%)
Straight: 157 (0.40%) expected: 161 (0.412%)
Flush: 325 (0.83%) expected: 327 (0.835%)
Full house: 40 (0.102%) expected: 36 (0.0918%)
Four of a kind: 1 (0.003%) expected: 4 (0.0102%)
Straight flush: 1 (0.003%) expected: 2 (0.00589%)
Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.000654%)

USER HAS ANY PAIR (dealt 10027 times):
Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
Underpair (to flop): 2307 (23.01%) expected: 2353 (23.5%)
Overpair (to flop): 2368 (23.62%) expected: 2353 (23.5%)
Set: 1170 (11.67%) expected: 1154 (11.51%)
Quads: 26 (0.259%) expected: 25 (0.245%)
Three cards on the flop make up a:
3 straight: 300 (2.99%) expected: 319 (3.18%)
2 flush: 5542 (55.27%) expected: 5519 (55.0%)
3 flush: 518 (5.17%) expected: 518 (5.16%)
any pair: 1776 (17.71%) expected: 1719 (17.1%)
Hand user flops:
High card: 0 (0.0%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
Pair: 7141 (71.2%) expected: 7203 (71.8%)
Two pair: 1666 (16.62%) expected: 1621 (16.2%)
3 of a kind: 1086 (10.83%) expected: 1080 (10.8%)
Straight: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
Flush: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
Full house: 108 (1.077%) expected: 98 (0.980%)
Four of a kind: 26 (0.259%) expected: 25 (0.245%)
Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)

USER HAS OFFSUIT CONNECTORS FROM 54o to JTo (dealt 10374 times):
Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
Open ended: 883 (8.51%) expected: 887 (8.55%)
Double belly: 75 (0.72%) expected: 55 (0.531%)
Straight: 136 (1.31%) expected: 131 (1.26%)
Three cards on the flop make up a:
3 straight: 302 (2.91%) expected: 327 (3.15%)
2 flush: 5666 (54.62%) expected: 5710 (55.0%)
3 flush: 540 (5.21%) expected: 536 (5.16%)
any pair: 1801 (17.36%) expected: 1756 (16.9%)
Hand user flops:
High card: 5448 (52.5%) expected: 5461 (52.6%)
Pair: 4176 (40.3%) expected: 4192 (40.4%)
Two pair: 437 (4.21%) expected: 419 (4.04%)
3 of a kind: 168 (1.62%) expected: 163 (1.57%)
Straight: 138 (1.33%) expected: 128 (1.23%)
Flush: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
Full house: 7 (0.067%) expected: 10 (0.0918%)
Four of a kind: 0 (0.000%) expected: 1 (0.0102%)
Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)

ALL FLOPS SEEN BY THE USER:
Three cards on the flop make up a:
3 straight: 5248 (3.17%) expected: 5271 (3.19%)
2 flush: 91094 (55.05%) expected: 91110 (55.1%)
3 flush: 8807 (5.32%) expected: 8566 (5.18%)
any pair: 28148 (17.01%) expected: 28034 (16.9%)
Hand user flops:
High card: 82657 (50.0%) expected: 82934 (50.1%)
Pair: 70082 (42.4%) expected: 69926 (42.3%)
Two pair: 7944 (4.80%) expected: 7867 (4.75%)
3 of a kind: 3546 (2.14%) expected: 3496 (2.11%)
Straight: 644 (0.39%) expected: 649 (0.392%)
Flush: 325 (0.20%) expected: 325 (0.197%)
Full house: 244 (0.147%) expected: 238 (0.144%)
Four of a kind: 35 (0.021%) expected: 40 (0.0240%)
Straight flush: 1 (0.001%) expected: 2 (0.00139%)
Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.000154%)



(Note that only data for hands where a river was dealt and you
were dealt cards preflop are used. Hands where no river was dealt
are skipped.)

Total hands you were dealt cards: 182149

Total final boards seen when you were dealt cards: 111970

USER HAS ANY TWO SUITED CARDS (dealt 26462 times):
Four flushes flopped: 3023 (11.42%)
expected: 2896 (10.9%)
When flop four flush, got flush: 1029 (34.04%)
expected: 1057 (35.0%)
Hand user has at river:
High card: 4778 (18.1%) expected: 4612 (17.4%)
Pair: 11233 (42.4%) expected: 11284 (42.6%)
Two pair: 5810 (21.96%) expected: 5849 (22.1%)
3 of a kind: 1112 (4.20%) expected: 1147 (4.33%)
Straight: 1246 (4.71%) expected: 1206 (4.56%)
Flush: 1722 (6.51%) expected: 1722 (6.51%)
Full house: 514 (1.942%) expected: 589 (2.22%)
Four of a kind: 26 (0.098%) expected: 33 (0.126%)
Straight flush: 19 (0.072%) expected: 18 (0.0663%)
Royal flush: 2 (0.008%) expected: 2 (0.00781%)

USER HAS ANY PAIR (dealt 7070 times):
A set flopped: 873 (12.35%)
expected: 796 (11.3%)
When flop set, got boat or quads: 241 (27.61%)
expected: 292 (33.4%)
Hand user has at river:
High card: 0 (0.0%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
Pair: 2534 (35.8%) expected: 2508 (35.5%)
Two pair: 2741 (38.77%) expected: 2795 (39.5%)
3 of a kind: 877 (12.40%) expected: 829 (11.7%)
Straight: 127 (1.80%) expected: 134 (1.90%)
Flush: 124 (1.75%) expected: 138 (1.95%)
Full house: 610 (8.628%) expected: 604 (8.54%)
Four of a kind: 57 (0.806%) expected: 60 (0.842%)
Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 1 (0.0160%)
Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00182%)

USER HAS OFFSUIT CONNECTORS FROM 54o to JTo (dealt 7059 times):
Flopped open ended: 636 (9.01%)
expected: 604 (8.55%)
When open ended, got straight: 220 (34.59%)
expected: 195 (30.7%)
Hand user has at river:
High card: 1233 (17.5%) expected: 1214 (17.2%)
Pair: 2986 (42.3%) expected: 3017 (42.7%)
Two pair: 1523 (21.58%) expected: 1572 (22.3%)
3 of a kind: 282 (3.99%) expected: 307 (4.35%)
Straight: 725 (10.27%) expected: 644 (9.12%)
Flush: 126 (1.78%) expected: 138 (1.95%)
Full house: 175 (2.479%) expected: 157 (2.22%)
Four of a kind: 4 (0.057%) expected: 9 (0.126%)
Straight flush: 5 (0.071%) expected: 1 (0.0209%)
Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00110%)

ALL RIVERS SEEN BY THE USER:
Hand user has at river:
High card: 20043 (17.9%) expected: 19496 (17.4%)
Pair: 49056 (43.8%) expected: 49068 (43.8%)
Two pair: 25823 (23.06%) expected: 26308 (23.5%)
3 of a kind: 5260 (4.70%) expected: 5408 (4.83%)
Straight: 5483 (4.90%) expected: 5172 (4.62%)
Flush: 3341 (2.98%) expected: 3388 (3.03%)
Full house: 2768 (2.472%) expected: 2907 (2.60%)
Four of a kind: 160 (0.143%) expected: 188 (0.168%)
Straight flush: 32 (0.029%) expected: 31 (0.0279%)
Royal flush: 4 (0.004%) expected: 4 (0.00323%)

Four to a flush on board 4870 (4.349%)
expected: 4805 (4.29%)

[Josh]

You can take your bogus stats and shove em up your arse. No way are
those stats real. Every field is only less than 1/10th of a percent away
of expected?? Are you kidding me. Where the hell do you play sign me up.
Poker stars is still rigged even though you created these false stats.

Thanks shill boy you just proved how crooked you con artists can be.
Altering stats to make them look totally unrealistic LOL.

Josh

** Posted via RGP ACCESS at http://www.LiveActionPoker.com

** Win a seat to the 2004 WSOP at http://www.FabulousPoker.com

[Nathan Stohler]

Look at some of the figures. For example:

ALL RIVERS SEEN BY THE USER:
Hand user has at river:
High card: 20043 (17.9%) expected: 19496 (17.4%)
Pair: 49056 (43.8%) expected: 49068 (43.8%)
Two pair: 25823 (23.06%) expected: 26308 (23.5%)
3 of a kind: 5260 (4.70%) expected: 5408 (4.83%)
Straight: 5483 (4.90%) expected: 5172 (4.62%)
Flush: 3341 (2.98%) expected: 3388 (3.03%)
Full house: 2768 (2.472%) expected: 2907 (2.60%)
Four of a kind: 160 (0.143%) expected: 188 (0.168%)
Straight flush: 32 (0.029%) expected: 31 (0.0279%)
Royal flush: 4 (0.004%) expected: 4 (0.00323%)

Look at the Four of a kind values. The actual result here is 14.9%
less than the expected outcome: (.168 - .143)/.168 = 14.9%, which is
a significant (but not far-fetched) difference.

You said "Every field is only less than 1/10th of a percent away of
expected??" Can I assume you exaggerated?

Josh wrote:
>
> You can take your bogus stats and shove em up your arse. No way are
> those stats real. Every field is only less than 1/10th of a percent away
> of expected?? Are you kidding me. Where the hell do you play sign me up.
> Poker stars is still rigged even though you created these false stats.
>
> Thanks shill boy you just proved how crooked you con artists can be.
> Altering stats to make them look totally unrealistic LOL.
>
> Josh
>
> ** Posted via RGP ACCESS at http://www.LiveActionPoker.com
>
> ** Win a seat to the 2004 WSOP at http://www.FabulousPoker.com

[O-PGManager]

> You can take your bogus stats and shove em up your arse. No way are
> those stats real. Every field is only less than 1/10th of a percent away
> of expected??

After 3 years, if a site isn't rigged, that's exactly how it should look.
Josh, we had our runins together at 2+2 and I feel for you, but you are
not a very intelligent man. You clearly don't even have the most basic
grasp on statistics.

Josh, maybe you are not that this stupid, I hope this is troll post, and
no one really thinks like this. If you did make this post, you are
closing in on Corey and TheDean.

Then again, maybe I am the stupid one for falling for all of these posts.
I think that pretending trolls are popping out of the woodwork to get a
rise out of people, but they have to realize, there is only one Dean.

O-PG

------------------------------------------
Start winning hundreds at Texas Holdem with Power Holdem+
http://www.online-pokerguide.com

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com

[Bad Ass]

I and three online poker playing friends use pokerstat and I am not
aware of anyone ever finding any significant deveation from established
norms. I just love it when poor players cry about games being fixed
because obviously it cant have anything to do with chance or there poker
playing skills. But what really gives me a chubby is when theese same
players plop there money down every night.

** Posted via RGP ACCESS at http://www.LiveActionPoker.com

** Win a seat to the 2004 WSOP at http://www.FabulousPoker.com

[Mike Armour]

My pokerstats are real close to the ones presented. I see no way that the
card distributions is fixed.

Mike

On Sep 19 2003 4:30AM, Josh wrote:

> You can take your bogus stats and shove em up your arse. No way are
> those stats real. Every field is only less than 1/10th of a percent away
> of expected?? Are you kidding me. Where the hell do you play sign me up.
> Poker stars is still rigged even though you created these false stats.
>
> Thanks shill boy you just proved how crooked you con artists can be.
> Altering stats to make them look totally unrealistic LOL.
>
> Josh
>
> ** Posted via RGP ACCESS at http://www.LiveActionPoker.com
>
> ** Win a seat to the 2004 WSOP at http://www.FabulousPoker.com

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com

[O-PGManager]

I believe those numbers can be generated quite easily. Here's the way I
see it, only the fishiest of fish will play 72o, but tons of people play
K2o or any FacecardX for that matter. People are going to be playing more
high cards so for the "action" more high cards have to hit the flop.
Simply gather a bunch of flops, and see if high cards are hitting at a
rate significantly higher than the expected value.

O-PG

------------------------------------------
Start winning hundreds at Texas Holdem with Power Holdem+
http://www.online-pokerguide.com



On Sep 19 2003 11:59AM, Whiffleboy wrote:

> If real, these go along way to prove that hand distributions for you are
> right there in the norm, obviously. However, I don't think that's what
> proponents of juiced flops are talking about. I believe the concern is
> that the cards they are dealt and the cards others are dealt coordinate
> with the community cards more than they should, therefore, creating more
> action. How can those numbers be gathered?
>
> Is this correct?
>
> Whiffleboy
>
>
> On Sep 19 2003 8:15AM, countlesshands wrote:
>
> > I have no affiliation whatsoever with any online site.
> >
> >
> > I play online 20-30 hours a week. My expection online,between
> > one-half to one bb/hour, for stakes between 2-4 and 20-40, after three
> > years of play, is reasonably close to my b+m expectation for stakes
> > between 10-20 and 20-40. I win consistently at Paradise, Pokerstars,
> > UltimateBet, Party, and Truepoker. Based on my results and experience
> > on all of these sites, I conclude that the games are fair, and that
> > collusion is minimal. I make no claims for games above 20-40, nor the
> > 15-30 Party games, because I have not played them.
> >
> >
> > Following is my Pokerstat database, presented as supporting evidence
> > for my assertion that online poker is not rigged:
> >
> >
> >
> > Total hands you were dealt cards: 182149
> >
> > All suited starters dealt: 42961 (23.59%)
> > All suited starters expected: 42859 (23.5%)
> >
> > All connected starters dealt: 28445 (15.62%)
> > All connected starters expected: 28572 (15.7%)
> >
> > Suited connector starters dealt: 7163 (3.93%)
> > Suited connector starters expected: 7143 (3.92%)
> >
> > Paired starters dealt: 10734 (5.893%)
> > Paired starters expected: 10715 (5.88%)
> >
> > AKo dealt: 1660 (0.911%)
> > AKo expected: 1648 (0.905%)
> >
> > AKs dealt: 530 (0.291%)
> > AKs expected: 549 (0.302%)
> >
> > Any AK dealt: 2190 (1.202%)
> > Any AK expected: 2198 (1.21%)
> >
> > A's dealt: 824 (0.452%)
> > K's dealt: 859 (0.472%)
> > Q's dealt: 861 (0.473%)
> > J's dealt: 813 (0.446%)
> > T's dealt: 827 (0.454%)
> > 9's dealt: 778 (0.427%)
> > 8's dealt: 837 (0.460%)
> > 7's dealt: 810 (0.445%)
> > 6's dealt: 847 (0.465%)
> > 5's dealt: 794 (0.436%)
> > 4's dealt: 842 (0.462%)
> > 3's dealt: 859 (0.472%)
> > 2's dealt: 783 (0.430%)
> > Each pair expected: 824 (0.452%)
> >
> >
> > (Note that only data for hands where a flop was dealt and you
> > were dealt cards preflop are used. Hands where no flop was dealt
> > are skipped.)
> >
> > Total hands you were dealt cards: 182149
> > Times a flop dealt when you were dealt cards: 165478 (90.85%)
> >
> > When user dealt AK, flops at least one A or K: 677 (33.20%)
> > expected: 661 (32.4%)
> >
> > USER HAS ANY TWO SUITED CARDS (dealt 39171 times):
> > Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
> > 3 flush: 16278 (41.56%) expected: 16290 (41.6%)
> > 4 flush: 4287 (10.94%) expected: 4287 (10.9%)
> > 5 flush: 326 (0.83%) expected: 330 (0.842%)
> > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > 3 straight: 1296 (3.31%) expected: 1248 (3.18%)
> > 2 flush: 21657 (55.29%) expected: 21590 (55.1%)
> > 3 flush: 2109 (5.38%) expected: 2044 (05.22%)
> > any pair: 6693 (17.09%) expected: 6631 (16.9%)
> > Hand user flops:
> > High card: 20527 (52.4%) expected: 20613 (52.6%)
> > Pair: 15871 (40.5%) expected: 15828 (40.4%)
> > Two pair: 1625 (4.15%) expected: 1583 (4.04%)
> > 3 of a kind: 624 (1.59%) expected: 616 (1.57%)
> > Straight: 157 (0.40%) expected: 161 (0.412%)
> > Flush: 325 (0.83%) expected: 327 (0.835%)
> > Full house: 40 (0.102%) expected: 36 (0.0918%)
> > Four of a kind: 1 (0.003%) expected: 4 (0.0102%)
> > Straight flush: 1 (0.003%) expected: 2 (0.00589%)
> > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.000654%)
> >
> > USER HAS ANY PAIR (dealt 10027 times):
> > Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
> > Underpair (to flop): 2307 (23.01%) expected: 2353 (23.5%)
> > Overpair (to flop): 2368 (23.62%) expected: 2353 (23.5%)
> > Set: 1170 (11.67%) expected: 1154 (11.51%)
> > Quads: 26 (0.259%) expected: 25 (0.245%)
> > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > 3 straight: 300 (2.99%) expected: 319 (3.18%)
> > 2 flush: 5542 (55.27%) expected: 5519 (55.0%)
> > 3 flush: 518 (5.17%) expected: 518 (5.16%)
> > any pair: 1776 (17.71%) expected: 1719 (17.1%)
> > Hand user flops:
> > High card: 0 (0.0%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > Pair: 7141 (71.2%) expected: 7203 (71.8%)
> > Two pair: 1666 (16.62%) expected: 1621 (16.2%)
> > 3 of a kind: 1086 (10.83%) expected: 1080 (10.8%)
> > Straight: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > Flush: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > Full house: 108 (1.077%) expected: 98 (0.980%)
> > Four of a kind: 26 (0.259%) expected: 25 (0.245%)
> > Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> >
> > USER HAS OFFSUIT CONNECTORS FROM 54o to JTo (dealt 10374 times):
> > Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
> > Open ended: 883 (8.51%) expected: 887 (8.55%)
> > Double belly: 75 (0.72%) expected: 55 (0.531%)
> > Straight: 136 (1.31%) expected: 131 (1.26%)
> > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > 3 straight: 302 (2.91%) expected: 327 (3.15%)
> > 2 flush: 5666 (54.62%) expected: 5710 (55.0%)
> > 3 flush: 540 (5.21%) expected: 536 (5.16%)
> > any pair: 1801 (17.36%) expected: 1756 (16.9%)
> > Hand user flops:
> > High card: 5448 (52.5%) expected: 5461 (52.6%)
> > Pair: 4176 (40.3%) expected: 4192 (40.4%)
> > Two pair: 437 (4.21%) expected: 419 (4.04%)
> > 3 of a kind: 168 (1.62%) expected: 163 (1.57%)
> > Straight: 138 (1.33%) expected: 128 (1.23%)
> > Flush: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > Full house: 7 (0.067%) expected: 10 (0.0918%)
> > Four of a kind: 0 (0.000%) expected: 1 (0.0102%)
> > Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> >
> > ALL FLOPS SEEN BY THE USER:
> > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > 3 straight: 5248 (3.17%) expected: 5271 (3.19%)
> > 2 flush: 91094 (55.05%) expected: 91110 (55.1%)
> > 3 flush: 8807 (5.32%) expected: 8566 (5.18%)
> > any pair: 28148 (17.01%) expected: 28034 (16.9%)
> > Hand user flops:
> > High card: 82657 (50.0%) expected: 82934 (50.1%)
> > Pair: 70082 (42.4%) expected: 69926 (42.3%)
> > Two pair: 7944 (4.80%) expected: 7867 (4.75%)
> > 3 of a kind: 3546 (2.14%) expected: 3496 (2.11%)
> > Straight: 644 (0.39%) expected: 649 (0.392%)
> > Flush: 325 (0.20%) expected: 325 (0.197%)
> > Full house: 244 (0.147%) expected: 238 (0.144%)
> > Four of a kind: 35 (0.021%) expected: 40 (0.0240%)
> > Straight flush: 1 (0.001%) expected: 2 (0.00139%)
> > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.000154%)
> >
> >
> >
> > (Note that only data for hands where a river was dealt and you
> > were dealt cards preflop are used. Hands where no river was dealt
> > are skipped.)
> >
> > Total hands you were dealt cards: 182149
> >
> > Total final boards seen when you were dealt cards: 111970
> >
> > USER HAS ANY TWO SUITED CARDS (dealt 26462 times):
> > Four flushes flopped: 3023 (11.42%)
> > expected: 2896 (10.9%)
> > When flop four flush, got flush: 1029 (34.04%)
> > expected: 1057 (35.0%)
> > Hand user has at river:
> > High card: 4778 (18.1%) expected: 4612 (17.4%)
> > Pair: 11233 (42.4%) expected: 11284 (42.6%)
> > Two pair: 5810 (21.96%) expected: 5849 (22.1%)
> > 3 of a kind: 1112 (4.20%) expected: 1147 (4.33%)
> > Straight: 1246 (4.71%) expected: 1206 (4.56%)
> > Flush: 1722 (6.51%) expected: 1722 (6.51%)
> > Full house: 514 (1.942%) expected: 589 (2.22%)
> > Four of a kind: 26 (0.098%) expected: 33 (0.126%)
> > Straight flush: 19 (0.072%) expected: 18 (0.0663%)
> > Royal flush: 2 (0.008%) expected: 2 (0.00781%)
> >
> > USER HAS ANY PAIR (dealt 7070 times):
> > A set flopped: 873 (12.35%)
> > expected: 796 (11.3%)
> > When flop set, got boat or quads: 241 (27.61%)
> > expected: 292 (33.4%)
> > Hand user has at river:
> > High card: 0 (0.0%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > Pair: 2534 (35.8%) expected: 2508 (35.5%)
> > Two pair: 2741 (38.77%) expected: 2795 (39.5%)
> > 3 of a kind: 877 (12.40%) expected: 829 (11.7%)
> > Straight: 127 (1.80%) expected: 134 (1.90%)
> > Flush: 124 (1.75%) expected: 138 (1.95%)
> > Full house: 610 (8.628%) expected: 604 (8.54%)
> > Four of a kind: 57 (0.806%) expected: 60 (0.842%)
> > Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 1 (0.0160%)
> > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00182%)
> >
> > USER HAS OFFSUIT CONNECTORS FROM 54o to JTo (dealt 7059 times):
> > Flopped open ended: 636 (9.01%)
> > expected: 604 (8.55%)
> > When open ended, got straight: 220 (34.59%)
> > expected: 195 (30.7%)
> > Hand user has at river:
> > High card: 1233 (17.5%) expected: 1214 (17.2%)
> > Pair: 2986 (42.3%) expected: 3017 (42.7%)
> > Two pair: 1523 (21.58%) expected: 1572 (22.3%)
> > 3 of a kind: 282 (3.99%) expected: 307 (4.35%)
> > Straight: 725 (10.27%) expected: 644 (9.12%)
> > Flush: 126 (1.78%) expected: 138 (1.95%)
> > Full house: 175 (2.479%) expected: 157 (2.22%)
> > Four of a kind: 4 (0.057%) expected: 9 (0.126%)
> > Straight flush: 5 (0.071%) expected: 1 (0.0209%)
> > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00110%)
> >
> > ALL RIVERS SEEN BY THE USER:
> > Hand user has at river:
> > High card: 20043 (17.9%) expected: 19496 (17.4%)
> > Pair: 49056 (43.8%) expected: 49068 (43.8%)
> > Two pair: 25823 (23.06%) expected: 26308 (23.5%)
> > 3 of a kind: 5260 (4.70%) expected: 5408 (4.83%)
> > Straight: 5483 (4.90%) expected: 5172 (4.62%)
> > Flush: 3341 (2.98%) expected: 3388 (3.03%)
> > Full house: 2768 (2.472%) expected: 2907 (2.60%)
> > Four of a kind: 160 (0.143%) expected: 188 (0.168%)
> > Straight flush: 32 (0.029%) expected: 31 (0.0279%)
> > Royal flush: 4 (0.004%) expected: 4 (0.00323%)
> >
> > Four to a flush on board 4870 (4.349%)
> > expected: 4805 (4.29%)

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com

[Whiffleboy]

Yes. But what about the straights, flushes and sets or trips that folks
say roll in all the time, crushing their big hands. You wouldn't
necessarily need high cards for those. Is there a way to gather that data?

Not a statistics person,

Whiffleboy
On Sep 19 2003 2:15AM, O-PGManager wrote:

> I believe those numbers can be generated quite easily. Here's the way I
> see it, only the fishiest of fish will play 72o, but tons of people play
> K2o or any FacecardX for that matter. People are going to be playing more
> high cards so for the "action" more high cards have to hit the flop.
> Simply gather a bunch of flops, and see if high cards are hitting at a
> rate significantly higher than the expected value.
>
> O-PG
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Start winning hundreds at Texas Holdem with Power Holdem+
> http://www.online-pokerguide.com
>
>
>
> On Sep 19 2003 11:59AM, Whiffleboy wrote:
>
> > If real, these go along way to prove that hand distributions for you are
> > right there in the norm, obviously. However, I don't think that's what
> > proponents of juiced flops are talking about. I believe the concern is
> > that the cards they are dealt and the cards others are dealt coordinate
> > with the community cards more than they should, therefore, creating more
> > action. How can those numbers be gathered?
> >
> > Is this correct?
> >
> > Whiffleboy
> >
> >
> > On Sep 19 2003 8:15AM, countlesshands wrote:
> >
> > > I have no affiliation whatsoever with any online site.
> > >
> > >
> > > I play online 20-30 hours a week. My expection online,between
> > > one-half to one bb/hour, for stakes between 2-4 and 20-40, after three
> > > years of play, is reasonably close to my b+m expectation for stakes
> > > between 10-20 and 20-40. I win consistently at Paradise, Pokerstars,
> > > UltimateBet, Party, and Truepoker. Based on my results and experience
> > > on all of these sites, I conclude that the games are fair, and that
> > > collusion is minimal. I make no claims for games above 20-40, nor the
> > > 15-30 Party games, because I have not played them.
> > >
> > >
> > > Following is my Pokerstat database, presented as supporting evidence
> > > for my assertion that online poker is not rigged:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Total hands you were dealt cards: 182149
> > >
> > > All suited starters dealt: 42961 (23.59%)
> > > All suited starters expected: 42859 (23.5%)
> > >
> > > All connected starters dealt: 28445 (15.62%)
> > > All connected starters expected: 28572 (15.7%)
> > >
> > > Suited connector starters dealt: 7163 (3.93%)
> > > Suited connector starters expected: 7143 (3.92%)
> > >
> > > Paired starters dealt: 10734 (5.893%)
> > > Paired starters expected: 10715 (5.88%)
> > >
> > > AKo dealt: 1660 (0.911%)
> > > AKo expected: 1648 (0.905%)
> > >
> > > AKs dealt: 530 (0.291%)
> > > AKs expected: 549 (0.302%)
> > >
> > > Any AK dealt: 2190 (1.202%)
> > > Any AK expected: 2198 (1.21%)
> > >
> > > A's dealt: 824 (0.452%)
> > > K's dealt: 859 (0.472%)
> > > Q's dealt: 861 (0.473%)
> > > J's dealt: 813 (0.446%)
> > > T's dealt: 827 (0.454%)
> > > 9's dealt: 778 (0.427%)
> > > 8's dealt: 837 (0.460%)
> > > 7's dealt: 810 (0.445%)
> > > 6's dealt: 847 (0.465%)
> > > 5's dealt: 794 (0.436%)
> > > 4's dealt: 842 (0.462%)
> > > 3's dealt: 859 (0.472%)
> > > 2's dealt: 783 (0.430%)
> > > Each pair expected: 824 (0.452%)
> > >
> > >
> > > (Note that only data for hands where a flop was dealt and you
> > > were dealt cards preflop are used. Hands where no flop was dealt
> > > are skipped.)
> > >
> > > Total hands you were dealt cards: 182149
> > > Times a flop dealt when you were dealt cards: 165478 (90.85%)
> > >
> > > When user dealt AK, flops at least one A or K: 677 (33.20%)
> > > expected: 661 (32.4%)
> > >
> > > USER HAS ANY TWO SUITED CARDS (dealt 39171 times):
> > > Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
> > > 3 flush: 16278 (41.56%) expected: 16290 (41.6%)
> > > 4 flush: 4287 (10.94%) expected: 4287 (10.9%)
> > > 5 flush: 326 (0.83%) expected: 330 (0.842%)
> > > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > > 3 straight: 1296 (3.31%) expected: 1248 (3.18%)
> > > 2 flush: 21657 (55.29%) expected: 21590 (55.1%)
> > > 3 flush: 2109 (5.38%) expected: 2044 (05.22%)
> > > any pair: 6693 (17.09%) expected: 6631 (16.9%)
> > > Hand user flops:
> > > High card: 20527 (52.4%) expected: 20613 (52.6%)
> > > Pair: 15871 (40.5%) expected: 15828 (40.4%)
> > > Two pair: 1625 (4.15%) expected: 1583 (4.04%)
> > > 3 of a kind: 624 (1.59%) expected: 616 (1.57%)
> > > Straight: 157 (0.40%) expected: 161 (0.412%)
> > > Flush: 325 (0.83%) expected: 327 (0.835%)
> > > Full house: 40 (0.102%) expected: 36 (0.0918%)
> > > Four of a kind: 1 (0.003%) expected: 4 (0.0102%)
> > > Straight flush: 1 (0.003%) expected: 2 (0.00589%)
> > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.000654%)
> > >
> > > USER HAS ANY PAIR (dealt 10027 times):
> > > Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
> > > Underpair (to flop): 2307 (23.01%) expected: 2353 (23.5%)
> > > Overpair (to flop): 2368 (23.62%) expected: 2353 (23.5%)
> > > Set: 1170 (11.67%) expected: 1154 (11.51%)
> > > Quads: 26 (0.259%) expected: 25 (0.245%)
> > > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > > 3 straight: 300 (2.99%) expected: 319 (3.18%)
> > > 2 flush: 5542 (55.27%) expected: 5519 (55.0%)
> > > 3 flush: 518 (5.17%) expected: 518 (5.16%)
> > > any pair: 1776 (17.71%) expected: 1719 (17.1%)
> > > Hand user flops:
> > > High card: 0 (0.0%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > Pair: 7141 (71.2%) expected: 7203 (71.8%)
> > > Two pair: 1666 (16.62%) expected: 1621 (16.2%)
> > > 3 of a kind: 1086 (10.83%) expected: 1080 (10.8%)
> > > Straight: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > Flush: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > Full house: 108 (1.077%) expected: 98 (0.980%)
> > > Four of a kind: 26 (0.259%) expected: 25 (0.245%)
> > > Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > >
> > > USER HAS OFFSUIT CONNECTORS FROM 54o to JTo (dealt 10374 times):
> > > Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
> > > Open ended: 883 (8.51%) expected: 887 (8.55%)
> > > Double belly: 75 (0.72%) expected: 55 (0.531%)
> > > Straight: 136 (1.31%) expected: 131 (1.26%)
> > > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > > 3 straight: 302 (2.91%) expected: 327 (3.15%)
> > > 2 flush: 5666 (54.62%) expected: 5710 (55.0%)
> > > 3 flush: 540 (5.21%) expected: 536 (5.16%)
> > > any pair: 1801 (17.36%) expected: 1756 (16.9%)
> > > Hand user flops:
> > > High card: 5448 (52.5%) expected: 5461 (52.6%)
> > > Pair: 4176 (40.3%) expected: 4192 (40.4%)
> > > Two pair: 437 (4.21%) expected: 419 (4.04%)
> > > 3 of a kind: 168 (1.62%) expected: 163 (1.57%)
> > > Straight: 138 (1.33%) expected: 128 (1.23%)
> > > Flush: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > Full house: 7 (0.067%) expected: 10 (0.0918%)
> > > Four of a kind: 0 (0.000%) expected: 1 (0.0102%)
> > > Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > >
> > > ALL FLOPS SEEN BY THE USER:
> > > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > > 3 straight: 5248 (3.17%) expected: 5271 (3.19%)
> > > 2 flush: 91094 (55.05%) expected: 91110 (55.1%)
> > > 3 flush: 8807 (5.32%) expected: 8566 (5.18%)
> > > any pair: 28148 (17.01%) expected: 28034 (16.9%)
> > > Hand user flops:
> > > High card: 82657 (50.0%) expected: 82934 (50.1%)
> > > Pair: 70082 (42.4%) expected: 69926 (42.3%)
> > > Two pair: 7944 (4.80%) expected: 7867 (4.75%)
> > > 3 of a kind: 3546 (2.14%) expected: 3496 (2.11%)
> > > Straight: 644 (0.39%) expected: 649 (0.392%)
> > > Flush: 325 (0.20%) expected: 325 (0.197%)
> > > Full house: 244 (0.147%) expected: 238 (0.144%)
> > > Four of a kind: 35 (0.021%) expected: 40 (0.0240%)
> > > Straight flush: 1 (0.001%) expected: 2 (0.00139%)
> > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.000154%)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > (Note that only data for hands where a river was dealt and you
> > > were dealt cards preflop are used. Hands where no river was dealt
> > > are skipped.)
> > >
> > > Total hands you were dealt cards: 182149
> > >
> > > Total final boards seen when you were dealt cards: 111970
> > >
> > > USER HAS ANY TWO SUITED CARDS (dealt 26462 times):
> > > Four flushes flopped: 3023 (11.42%)
> > > expected: 2896 (10.9%)
> > > When flop four flush, got flush: 1029 (34.04%)
> > > expected: 1057 (35.0%)
> > > Hand user has at river:
> > > High card: 4778 (18.1%) expected: 4612 (17.4%)
> > > Pair: 11233 (42.4%) expected: 11284 (42.6%)
> > > Two pair: 5810 (21.96%) expected: 5849 (22.1%)
> > > 3 of a kind: 1112 (4.20%) expected: 1147 (4.33%)
> > > Straight: 1246 (4.71%) expected: 1206 (4.56%)
> > > Flush: 1722 (6.51%) expected: 1722 (6.51%)
> > > Full house: 514 (1.942%) expected: 589 (2.22%)
> > > Four of a kind: 26 (0.098%) expected: 33 (0.126%)
> > > Straight flush: 19 (0.072%) expected: 18 (0.0663%)
> > > Royal flush: 2 (0.008%) expected: 2 (0.00781%)
> > >
> > > USER HAS ANY PAIR (dealt 7070 times):
> > > A set flopped: 873 (12.35%)
> > > expected: 796 (11.3%)
> > > When flop set, got boat or quads: 241 (27.61%)
> > > expected: 292 (33.4%)
> > > Hand user has at river:
> > > High card: 0 (0.0%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > Pair: 2534 (35.8%) expected: 2508 (35.5%)
> > > Two pair: 2741 (38.77%) expected: 2795 (39.5%)
> > > 3 of a kind: 877 (12.40%) expected: 829 (11.7%)
> > > Straight: 127 (1.80%) expected: 134 (1.90%)
> > > Flush: 124 (1.75%) expected: 138 (1.95%)
> > > Full house: 610 (8.628%) expected: 604 (8.54%)
> > > Four of a kind: 57 (0.806%) expected: 60 (0.842%)
> > > Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 1 (0.0160%)
> > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00182%)
> > >
> > > USER HAS OFFSUIT CONNECTORS FROM 54o to JTo (dealt 7059 times):
> > > Flopped open ended: 636 (9.01%)
> > > expected: 604 (8.55%)
> > > When open ended, got straight: 220 (34.59%)
> > > expected: 195 (30.7%)
> > > Hand user has at river:
> > > High card: 1233 (17.5%) expected: 1214 (17.2%)
> > > Pair: 2986 (42.3%) expected: 3017 (42.7%)
> > > Two pair: 1523 (21.58%) expected: 1572 (22.3%)
> > > 3 of a kind: 282 (3.99%) expected: 307 (4.35%)
> > > Straight: 725 (10.27%) expected: 644 (9.12%)
> > > Flush: 126 (1.78%) expected: 138 (1.95%)
> > > Full house: 175 (2.479%) expected: 157 (2.22%)
> > > Four of a kind: 4 (0.057%) expected: 9 (0.126%)
> > > Straight flush: 5 (0.071%) expected: 1 (0.0209%)
> > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00110%)
> > >
> > > ALL RIVERS SEEN BY THE USER:
> > > Hand user has at river:
> > > High card: 20043 (17.9%) expected: 19496 (17.4%)
> > > Pair: 49056 (43.8%) expected: 49068 (43.8%)
> > > Two pair: 25823 (23.06%) expected: 26308 (23.5%)
> > > 3 of a kind: 5260 (4.70%) expected: 5408 (4.83%)
> > > Straight: 5483 (4.90%) expected: 5172 (4.62%)
> > > Flush: 3341 (2.98%) expected: 3388 (3.03%)
> > > Full house: 2768 (2.472%) expected: 2907 (2.60%)
> > > Four of a kind: 160 (0.143%) expected: 188 (0.168%)
> > > Straight flush: 32 (0.029%) expected: 31 (0.0279%)
> > > Royal flush: 4 (0.004%) expected: 4 (0.00323%)
> > >
> > > Four to a flush on board 4870 (4.349%)
> > > expected: 4805 (4.29%)

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com

[Fading Flush]

Finally!!!!!!!!! Given that the original poster has truly kept track of and
generated these stats honestly, (and I certainly don't have reason to thing
otherwise) I certainly think that there is sufficient 'hard proof' there to
illustrate that online poker sites in general, as far as card distribution
goes (over the long run) are fair and generate realistic outcomes.

If you take a look at or try to comprehend that given the hundreds of
thousands of hands played each day combined on all these on-line sites and
compare the relatively tiny number posts regarding so-called 'bad beats' on
RGP in relation to the number of hands played daily at these sites, then it
should be obvious that these posts regarding rigged decks/deals etc. as a
fact of on-line poker life is really (and always has been) a figment of
people's imaginations. Get over the paranoia!

No one will ever play poker consistently (I don't care how good you are)
without either making mistakes or being drawn/sucked out on whether it's
online or in B&M's so why waste your time worrying about this crap

It's POKER and that's LIFE

FF


"Whiffleboy" <anonymous@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3f6b32e5$0$163$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com...
> Yes. But what about the straights, flushes and sets or trips that folks
> say roll in all the time, crushing their big hands. You wouldn't
> necessarily need high cards for those. Is there a way to gather that
data?
>
> Not a statistics person,
>
> Whiffleboy
> On Sep 19 2003 2:15AM, O-PGManager wrote:
>
> > I believe those numbers can be generated quite easily. Here's the way I
> > see it, only the fishiest of fish will play 72o, but tons of people play
> > K2o or any FacecardX for that matter. People are going to be playing
more
> > high cards so for the "action" more high cards have to hit the flop.
> > Simply gather a bunch of flops, and see if high cards are hitting at a
> > rate significantly higher than the expected value.
> >
> > O-PG
> >
> > ------------------------------------------
> > Start winning hundreds at Texas Holdem with Power Holdem+
> > http://www.online-pokerguide.com
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sep 19 2003 11:59AM, Whiffleboy wrote:
> >
> > > If real, these go along way to prove that hand distributions for you
are
> > > right there in the norm, obviously. However, I don't think that's
what
> > > proponents of juiced flops are talking about. I believe the concern
is
> > > that the cards they are dealt and the cards others are dealt
coordinate
> > > with the community cards more than they should, therefore, creating
more
> > > action. How can those numbers be gathered?
> > >
> > > Is this correct?
> > >
> > > Whiffleboy
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sep 19 2003 8:15AM, countlesshands wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have no affiliation whatsoever with any online site.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I play online 20-30 hours a week. My expection online,between
> > > > one-half to one bb/hour, for stakes between 2-4 and 20-40, after
three
> > > > years of play, is reasonably close to my b+m expectation for stakes
> > > > between 10-20 and 20-40. I win consistently at Paradise,
Pokerstars,
> > > > UltimateBet, Party, and Truepoker. Based on my results and
experience
> > > > on all of these sites, I conclude that the games are fair, and that
> > > > collusion is minimal. I make no claims for games above 20-40, nor
the
> > > > 15-30 Party games, because I have not played them.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Following is my Pokerstat database, presented as supporting evidence
> > > > for my assertion that online poker is not rigged:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Total hands you were dealt cards: 182149
> > > >
> > > > All suited starters dealt: 42961 (23.59%)
> > > > All suited starters expected: 42859 (23.5%)
> > > >
> > > > All connected starters dealt: 28445 (15.62%)
> > > > All connected starters expected: 28572 (15.7%)
> > > >
> > > > Suited connector starters dealt: 7163 (3.93%)
> > > > Suited connector starters expected: 7143 (3.92%)
> > > >
> > > > Paired starters dealt: 10734 (5.893%)
> > > > Paired starters expected: 10715 (5.88%)
> > > >
> > > > AKo dealt: 1660 (0.911%)
> > > > AKo expected: 1648 (0.905%)
> > > >
> > > > AKs dealt: 530 (0.291%)
> > > > AKs expected: 549 (0.302%)
> > > >
> > > > Any AK dealt: 2190 (1.202%)
> > > > Any AK expected: 2198 (1.21%)
> > > >
> > > > A's dealt: 824 (0.452%)
> > > > K's dealt: 859 (0.472%)
> > > > Q's dealt: 861 (0.473%)
> > > > J's dealt: 813 (0.446%)
> > > > T's dealt: 827 (0.454%)
> > > > 9's dealt: 778 (0.427%)
> > > > 8's dealt: 837 (0.460%)
> > > > 7's dealt: 810 (0.445%)
> > > > 6's dealt: 847 (0.465%)
> > > > 5's dealt: 794 (0.436%)
> > > > 4's dealt: 842 (0.462%)
> > > > 3's dealt: 859 (0.472%)
> > > > 2's dealt: 783 (0.430%)
> > > > Each pair expected: 824 (0.452%)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > (Note that only data for hands where a flop was dealt and you
> > > > were dealt cards preflop are used. Hands where no flop was dealt
> > > > are skipped.)
> > > >
> > > > Total hands you were dealt cards: 182149
> > > > Times a flop dealt when you were dealt cards: 165478 (90.85%)
> > > >
> > > > When user dealt AK, flops at least one A or K: 677 (33.20%)
> > > > expected: 661 (32.4%)
> > > >
> > > > USER HAS ANY TWO SUITED CARDS (dealt 39171 times):
> > > > Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
> > > > 3 flush: 16278 (41.56%) expected: 16290 (41.6%)
> > > > 4 flush: 4287 (10.94%) expected: 4287 (10.9%)
> > > > 5 flush: 326 (0.83%) expected: 330 (0.842%)
> > > > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > > > 3 straight: 1296 (3.31%) expected: 1248 (3.18%)
> > > > 2 flush: 21657 (55.29%) expected: 21590 (55.1%)
> > > > 3 flush: 2109 (5.38%) expected: 2044 (05.22%)
> > > > any pair: 6693 (17.09%) expected: 6631 (16.9%)
> > > > Hand user flops:
> > > > High card: 20527 (52.4%) expected: 20613 (52.6%)
> > > > Pair: 15871 (40.5%) expected: 15828 (40.4%)
> > > > Two pair: 1625 (4.15%) expected: 1583 (4.04%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 624 (1.59%) expected: 616 (1.57%)
> > > > Straight: 157 (0.40%) expected: 161 (0.412%)
> > > > Flush: 325 (0.83%) expected: 327 (0.835%)
> > > > Full house: 40 (0.102%) expected: 36 (0.0918%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 1 (0.003%) expected: 4 (0.0102%)
> > > > Straight flush: 1 (0.003%) expected: 2 (0.00589%)
> > > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.000654%)
> > > >
> > > > USER HAS ANY PAIR (dealt 10027 times):
> > > > Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
> > > > Underpair (to flop): 2307 (23.01%) expected: 2353 (23.5%)
> > > > Overpair (to flop): 2368 (23.62%) expected: 2353 (23.5%)
> > > > Set: 1170 (11.67%) expected: 1154 (11.51%)
> > > > Quads: 26 (0.259%) expected: 25 (0.245%)
> > > > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > > > 3 straight: 300 (2.99%) expected: 319 (3.18%)
> > > > 2 flush: 5542 (55.27%) expected: 5519 (55.0%)
> > > > 3 flush: 518 (5.17%) expected: 518 (5.16%)
> > > > any pair: 1776 (17.71%) expected: 1719 (17.1%)
> > > > Hand user flops:
> > > > High card: 0 (0.0%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > > Pair: 7141 (71.2%) expected: 7203 (71.8%)
> > > > Two pair: 1666 (16.62%) expected: 1621 (16.2%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 1086 (10.83%) expected: 1080 (10.8%)
> > > > Straight: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > > Flush: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > > Full house: 108 (1.077%) expected: 98 (0.980%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 26 (0.259%) expected: 25 (0.245%)
> > > > Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > >
> > > > USER HAS OFFSUIT CONNECTORS FROM 54o to JTo (dealt 10374 times):
> > > > Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
> > > > Open ended: 883 (8.51%) expected: 887 (8.55%)
> > > > Double belly: 75 (0.72%) expected: 55 (0.531%)
> > > > Straight: 136 (1.31%) expected: 131 (1.26%)
> > > > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > > > 3 straight: 302 (2.91%) expected: 327 (3.15%)
> > > > 2 flush: 5666 (54.62%) expected: 5710 (55.0%)
> > > > 3 flush: 540 (5.21%) expected: 536 (5.16%)
> > > > any pair: 1801 (17.36%) expected: 1756 (16.9%)
> > > > Hand user flops:
> > > > High card: 5448 (52.5%) expected: 5461 (52.6%)
> > > > Pair: 4176 (40.3%) expected: 4192 (40.4%)
> > > > Two pair: 437 (4.21%) expected: 419 (4.04%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 168 (1.62%) expected: 163 (1.57%)
> > > > Straight: 138 (1.33%) expected: 128 (1.23%)
> > > > Flush: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > > Full house: 7 (0.067%) expected: 10 (0.0918%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 0 (0.000%) expected: 1 (0.0102%)
> > > > Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > >
> > > > ALL FLOPS SEEN BY THE USER:
> > > > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > > > 3 straight: 5248 (3.17%) expected: 5271 (3.19%)
> > > > 2 flush: 91094 (55.05%) expected: 91110 (55.1%)
> > > > 3 flush: 8807 (5.32%) expected: 8566 (5.18%)
> > > > any pair: 28148 (17.01%) expected: 28034 (16.9%)
> > > > Hand user flops:
> > > > High card: 82657 (50.0%) expected: 82934 (50.1%)
> > > > Pair: 70082 (42.4%) expected: 69926 (42.3%)
> > > > Two pair: 7944 (4.80%) expected: 7867 (4.75%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 3546 (2.14%) expected: 3496 (2.11%)
> > > > Straight: 644 (0.39%) expected: 649 (0.392%)
> > > > Flush: 325 (0.20%) expected: 325 (0.197%)
> > > > Full house: 244 (0.147%) expected: 238 (0.144%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 35 (0.021%) expected: 40 (0.0240%)
> > > > Straight flush: 1 (0.001%) expected: 2 (0.00139%)
> > > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.000154%)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > (Note that only data for hands where a river was dealt and you
> > > > were dealt cards preflop are used. Hands where no river was dealt
> > > > are skipped.)
> > > >
> > > > Total hands you were dealt cards: 182149
> > > >
> > > > Total final boards seen when you were dealt cards: 111970
> > > >
> > > > USER HAS ANY TWO SUITED CARDS (dealt 26462 times):
> > > > Four flushes flopped: 3023 (11.42%)
> > > > expected: 2896 (10.9%)
> > > > When flop four flush, got flush: 1029 (34.04%)
> > > > expected: 1057 (35.0%)
> > > > Hand user has at river:
> > > > High card: 4778 (18.1%) expected: 4612 (17.4%)
> > > > Pair: 11233 (42.4%) expected: 11284 (42.6%)
> > > > Two pair: 5810 (21.96%) expected: 5849 (22.1%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 1112 (4.20%) expected: 1147 (4.33%)
> > > > Straight: 1246 (4.71%) expected: 1206 (4.56%)
> > > > Flush: 1722 (6.51%) expected: 1722 (6.51%)
> > > > Full house: 514 (1.942%) expected: 589 (2.22%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 26 (0.098%) expected: 33 (0.126%)
> > > > Straight flush: 19 (0.072%) expected: 18 (0.0663%)
> > > > Royal flush: 2 (0.008%) expected: 2 (0.00781%)
> > > >
> > > > USER HAS ANY PAIR (dealt 7070 times):
> > > > A set flopped: 873 (12.35%)
> > > > expected: 796 (11.3%)
> > > > When flop set, got boat or quads: 241 (27.61%)
> > > > expected: 292 (33.4%)
> > > > Hand user has at river:
> > > > High card: 0 (0.0%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > > Pair: 2534 (35.8%) expected: 2508 (35.5%)
> > > > Two pair: 2741 (38.77%) expected: 2795 (39.5%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 877 (12.40%) expected: 829 (11.7%)
> > > > Straight: 127 (1.80%) expected: 134 (1.90%)
> > > > Flush: 124 (1.75%) expected: 138 (1.95%)
> > > > Full house: 610 (8.628%) expected: 604 (8.54%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 57 (0.806%) expected: 60 (0.842%)
> > > > Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 1 (0.0160%)
> > > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00182%)
> > > >
> > > > USER HAS OFFSUIT CONNECTORS FROM 54o to JTo (dealt 7059 times):
> > > > Flopped open ended: 636 (9.01%)
> > > > expected: 604 (8.55%)
> > > > When open ended, got straight: 220 (34.59%)
> > > > expected: 195 (30.7%)
> > > > Hand user has at river:
> > > > High card: 1233 (17.5%) expected: 1214 (17.2%)
> > > > Pair: 2986 (42.3%) expected: 3017 (42.7%)
> > > > Two pair: 1523 (21.58%) expected: 1572 (22.3%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 282 (3.99%) expected: 307 (4.35%)
> > > > Straight: 725 (10.27%) expected: 644 (9.12%)
> > > > Flush: 126 (1.78%) expected: 138 (1.95%)
> > > > Full house: 175 (2.479%) expected: 157 (2.22%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 4 (0.057%) expected: 9 (0.126%)
> > > > Straight flush: 5 (0.071%) expected: 1 (0.0209%)
> > > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00110%)
> > > >
> > > > ALL RIVERS SEEN BY THE USER:
> > > > Hand user has at river:
> > > > High card: 20043 (17.9%) expected: 19496 (17.4%)
> > > > Pair: 49056 (43.8%) expected: 49068 (43.8%)
> > > > Two pair: 25823 (23.06%) expected: 26308 (23.5%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 5260 (4.70%) expected: 5408 (4.83%)
> > > > Straight: 5483 (4.90%) expected: 5172 (4.62%)
> > > > Flush: 3341 (2.98%) expected: 3388 (3.03%)
> > > > Full house: 2768 (2.472%) expected: 2907 (2.60%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 160 (0.143%) expected: 188 (0.168%)
> > > > Straight flush: 32 (0.029%) expected: 31 (0.0279%)
> > > > Royal flush: 4 (0.004%) expected: 4 (0.00323%)
> > > >
> > > > Four to a flush on board 4870 (4.349%)
> > > > expected: 4805 (4.29%)
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com
>
>

[O-PGManager]

Good points.

Flushes would be easy, simply check to see if 4 flushes are occuring too
often.

Straights, a bit harder, but you could still analyze if low one gappers
are hitting the flop too often.

Sets, I think you'd need pocket card data to analyze.

O-PG

------------------------------------------
Start winning hundreds at Texas Holdem with Power Holdem+
http://www.online-pokerguide.com

On Sep 19 2003 6:02AM, Whiffleboy wrote:

> Yes. But what about the straights, flushes and sets or trips that folks
> say roll in all the time, crushing their big hands. You wouldn't
> necessarily need high cards for those. Is there a way to gather that data?
>
> Not a statistics person,
>
> Whiffleboy
> On Sep 19 2003 2:15AM, O-PGManager wrote:
>
> > I believe those numbers can be generated quite easily. Here's the way I
> > see it, only the fishiest of fish will play 72o, but tons of people play
> > K2o or any FacecardX for that matter. People are going to be playing more
> > high cards so for the "action" more high cards have to hit the flop.
> > Simply gather a bunch of flops, and see if high cards are hitting at a
> > rate significantly higher than the expected value.
> >
> > O-PG
> >
> > ------------------------------------------
> > Start winning hundreds at Texas Holdem with Power Holdem+
> > http://www.online-pokerguide.com
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sep 19 2003 11:59AM, Whiffleboy wrote:
> >
> > > If real, these go along way to prove that hand distributions for you are
> > > right there in the norm, obviously. However, I don't think that's what
> > > proponents of juiced flops are talking about. I believe the concern is
> > > that the cards they are dealt and the cards others are dealt coordinate
> > > with the community cards more than they should, therefore, creating more
> > > action. How can those numbers be gathered?
> > >
> > > Is this correct?
> > >
> > > Whiffleboy
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sep 19 2003 8:15AM, countlesshands wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have no affiliation whatsoever with any online site.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I play online 20-30 hours a week. My expection online,between
> > > > one-half to one bb/hour, for stakes between 2-4 and 20-40, after three
> > > > years of play, is reasonably close to my b+m expectation for stakes
> > > > between 10-20 and 20-40. I win consistently at Paradise, Pokerstars,
> > > > UltimateBet, Party, and Truepoker. Based on my results and experience
> > > > on all of these sites, I conclude that the games are fair, and that
> > > > collusion is minimal. I make no claims for games above 20-40, nor the
> > > > 15-30 Party games, because I have not played them.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Following is my Pokerstat database, presented as supporting evidence
> > > > for my assertion that online poker is not rigged:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Total hands you were dealt cards: 182149
> > > >
> > > > All suited starters dealt: 42961 (23.59%)
> > > > All suited starters expected: 42859 (23.5%)
> > > >
> > > > All connected starters dealt: 28445 (15.62%)
> > > > All connected starters expected: 28572 (15.7%)
> > > >
> > > > Suited connector starters dealt: 7163 (3.93%)
> > > > Suited connector starters expected: 7143 (3.92%)
> > > >
> > > > Paired starters dealt: 10734 (5.893%)
> > > > Paired starters expected: 10715 (5.88%)
> > > >
> > > > AKo dealt: 1660 (0.911%)
> > > > AKo expected: 1648 (0.905%)
> > > >
> > > > AKs dealt: 530 (0.291%)
> > > > AKs expected: 549 (0.302%)
> > > >
> > > > Any AK dealt: 2190 (1.202%)
> > > > Any AK expected: 2198 (1.21%)
> > > >
> > > > A's dealt: 824 (0.452%)
> > > > K's dealt: 859 (0.472%)
> > > > Q's dealt: 861 (0.473%)
> > > > J's dealt: 813 (0.446%)
> > > > T's dealt: 827 (0.454%)
> > > > 9's dealt: 778 (0.427%)
> > > > 8's dealt: 837 (0.460%)
> > > > 7's dealt: 810 (0.445%)
> > > > 6's dealt: 847 (0.465%)
> > > > 5's dealt: 794 (0.436%)
> > > > 4's dealt: 842 (0.462%)
> > > > 3's dealt: 859 (0.472%)
> > > > 2's dealt: 783 (0.430%)
> > > > Each pair expected: 824 (0.452%)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > (Note that only data for hands where a flop was dealt and you
> > > > were dealt cards preflop are used. Hands where no flop was dealt
> > > > are skipped.)
> > > >
> > > > Total hands you were dealt cards: 182149
> > > > Times a flop dealt when you were dealt cards: 165478 (90.85%)
> > > >
> > > > When user dealt AK, flops at least one A or K: 677 (33.20%)
> > > > expected: 661 (32.4%)
> > > >
> > > > USER HAS ANY TWO SUITED CARDS (dealt 39171 times):
> > > > Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
> > > > 3 flush: 16278 (41.56%) expected: 16290 (41.6%)
> > > > 4 flush: 4287 (10.94%) expected: 4287 (10.9%)
> > > > 5 flush: 326 (0.83%) expected: 330 (0.842%)
> > > > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > > > 3 straight: 1296 (3.31%) expected: 1248 (3.18%)
> > > > 2 flush: 21657 (55.29%) expected: 21590 (55.1%)
> > > > 3 flush: 2109 (5.38%) expected: 2044 (05.22%)
> > > > any pair: 6693 (17.09%) expected: 6631 (16.9%)
> > > > Hand user flops:
> > > > High card: 20527 (52.4%) expected: 20613 (52.6%)
> > > > Pair: 15871 (40.5%) expected: 15828 (40.4%)
> > > > Two pair: 1625 (4.15%) expected: 1583 (4.04%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 624 (1.59%) expected: 616 (1.57%)
> > > > Straight: 157 (0.40%) expected: 161 (0.412%)
> > > > Flush: 325 (0.83%) expected: 327 (0.835%)
> > > > Full house: 40 (0.102%) expected: 36 (0.0918%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 1 (0.003%) expected: 4 (0.0102%)
> > > > Straight flush: 1 (0.003%) expected: 2 (0.00589%)
> > > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.000654%)
> > > >
> > > > USER HAS ANY PAIR (dealt 10027 times):
> > > > Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
> > > > Underpair (to flop): 2307 (23.01%) expected: 2353 (23.5%)
> > > > Overpair (to flop): 2368 (23.62%) expected: 2353 (23.5%)
> > > > Set: 1170 (11.67%) expected: 1154 (11.51%)
> > > > Quads: 26 (0.259%) expected: 25 (0.245%)
> > > > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > > > 3 straight: 300 (2.99%) expected: 319 (3.18%)
> > > > 2 flush: 5542 (55.27%) expected: 5519 (55.0%)
> > > > 3 flush: 518 (5.17%) expected: 518 (5.16%)
> > > > any pair: 1776 (17.71%) expected: 1719 (17.1%)
> > > > Hand user flops:
> > > > High card: 0 (0.0%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > > Pair: 7141 (71.2%) expected: 7203 (71.8%)
> > > > Two pair: 1666 (16.62%) expected: 1621 (16.2%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 1086 (10.83%) expected: 1080 (10.8%)
> > > > Straight: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > > Flush: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > > Full house: 108 (1.077%) expected: 98 (0.980%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 26 (0.259%) expected: 25 (0.245%)
> > > > Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > >
> > > > USER HAS OFFSUIT CONNECTORS FROM 54o to JTo (dealt 10374 times):
> > > > Using both user's hole cards, flopped a:
> > > > Open ended: 883 (8.51%) expected: 887 (8.55%)
> > > > Double belly: 75 (0.72%) expected: 55 (0.531%)
> > > > Straight: 136 (1.31%) expected: 131 (1.26%)
> > > > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > > > 3 straight: 302 (2.91%) expected: 327 (3.15%)
> > > > 2 flush: 5666 (54.62%) expected: 5710 (55.0%)
> > > > 3 flush: 540 (5.21%) expected: 536 (5.16%)
> > > > any pair: 1801 (17.36%) expected: 1756 (16.9%)
> > > > Hand user flops:
> > > > High card: 5448 (52.5%) expected: 5461 (52.6%)
> > > > Pair: 4176 (40.3%) expected: 4192 (40.4%)
> > > > Two pair: 437 (4.21%) expected: 419 (4.04%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 168 (1.62%) expected: 163 (1.57%)
> > > > Straight: 138 (1.33%) expected: 128 (1.23%)
> > > > Flush: 0 (0.00%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > > Full house: 7 (0.067%) expected: 10 (0.0918%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 0 (0.000%) expected: 1 (0.0102%)
> > > > Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > >
> > > > ALL FLOPS SEEN BY THE USER:
> > > > Three cards on the flop make up a:
> > > > 3 straight: 5248 (3.17%) expected: 5271 (3.19%)
> > > > 2 flush: 91094 (55.05%) expected: 91110 (55.1%)
> > > > 3 flush: 8807 (5.32%) expected: 8566 (5.18%)
> > > > any pair: 28148 (17.01%) expected: 28034 (16.9%)
> > > > Hand user flops:
> > > > High card: 82657 (50.0%) expected: 82934 (50.1%)
> > > > Pair: 70082 (42.4%) expected: 69926 (42.3%)
> > > > Two pair: 7944 (4.80%) expected: 7867 (4.75%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 3546 (2.14%) expected: 3496 (2.11%)
> > > > Straight: 644 (0.39%) expected: 649 (0.392%)
> > > > Flush: 325 (0.20%) expected: 325 (0.197%)
> > > > Full house: 244 (0.147%) expected: 238 (0.144%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 35 (0.021%) expected: 40 (0.0240%)
> > > > Straight flush: 1 (0.001%) expected: 2 (0.00139%)
> > > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.000154%)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > (Note that only data for hands where a river was dealt and you
> > > > were dealt cards preflop are used. Hands where no river was dealt
> > > > are skipped.)
> > > >
> > > > Total hands you were dealt cards: 182149
> > > >
> > > > Total final boards seen when you were dealt cards: 111970
> > > >
> > > > USER HAS ANY TWO SUITED CARDS (dealt 26462 times):
> > > > Four flushes flopped: 3023 (11.42%)
> > > > expected: 2896 (10.9%)
> > > > When flop four flush, got flush: 1029 (34.04%)
> > > > expected: 1057 (35.0%)
> > > > Hand user has at river:
> > > > High card: 4778 (18.1%) expected: 4612 (17.4%)
> > > > Pair: 11233 (42.4%) expected: 11284 (42.6%)
> > > > Two pair: 5810 (21.96%) expected: 5849 (22.1%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 1112 (4.20%) expected: 1147 (4.33%)
> > > > Straight: 1246 (4.71%) expected: 1206 (4.56%)
> > > > Flush: 1722 (6.51%) expected: 1722 (6.51%)
> > > > Full house: 514 (1.942%) expected: 589 (2.22%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 26 (0.098%) expected: 33 (0.126%)
> > > > Straight flush: 19 (0.072%) expected: 18 (0.0663%)
> > > > Royal flush: 2 (0.008%) expected: 2 (0.00781%)
> > > >
> > > > USER HAS ANY PAIR (dealt 7070 times):
> > > > A set flopped: 873 (12.35%)
> > > > expected: 796 (11.3%)
> > > > When flop set, got boat or quads: 241 (27.61%)
> > > > expected: 292 (33.4%)
> > > > Hand user has at river:
> > > > High card: 0 (0.0%) expected: 0 (0.00%)
> > > > Pair: 2534 (35.8%) expected: 2508 (35.5%)
> > > > Two pair: 2741 (38.77%) expected: 2795 (39.5%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 877 (12.40%) expected: 829 (11.7%)
> > > > Straight: 127 (1.80%) expected: 134 (1.90%)
> > > > Flush: 124 (1.75%) expected: 138 (1.95%)
> > > > Full house: 610 (8.628%) expected: 604 (8.54%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 57 (0.806%) expected: 60 (0.842%)
> > > > Straight flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 1 (0.0160%)
> > > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00182%)
> > > >
> > > > USER HAS OFFSUIT CONNECTORS FROM 54o to JTo (dealt 7059 times):
> > > > Flopped open ended: 636 (9.01%)
> > > > expected: 604 (8.55%)
> > > > When open ended, got straight: 220 (34.59%)
> > > > expected: 195 (30.7%)
> > > > Hand user has at river:
> > > > High card: 1233 (17.5%) expected: 1214 (17.2%)
> > > > Pair: 2986 (42.3%) expected: 3017 (42.7%)
> > > > Two pair: 1523 (21.58%) expected: 1572 (22.3%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 282 (3.99%) expected: 307 (4.35%)
> > > > Straight: 725 (10.27%) expected: 644 (9.12%)
> > > > Flush: 126 (1.78%) expected: 138 (1.95%)
> > > > Full house: 175 (2.479%) expected: 157 (2.22%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 4 (0.057%) expected: 9 (0.126%)
> > > > Straight flush: 5 (0.071%) expected: 1 (0.0209%)
> > > > Royal flush: 0 (0.000%) expected: 0 (0.00110%)
> > > >
> > > > ALL RIVERS SEEN BY THE USER:
> > > > Hand user has at river:
> > > > High card: 20043 (17.9%) expected: 19496 (17.4%)
> > > > Pair: 49056 (43.8%) expected: 49068 (43.8%)
> > > > Two pair: 25823 (23.06%) expected: 26308 (23.5%)
> > > > 3 of a kind: 5260 (4.70%) expected: 5408 (4.83%)
> > > > Straight: 5483 (4.90%) expected: 5172 (4.62%)
> > > > Flush: 3341 (2.98%) expected: 3388 (3.03%)
> > > > Full house: 2768 (2.472%) expected: 2907 (2.60%)
> > > > Four of a kind: 160 (0.143%) expected: 188 (0.168%)
> > > > Straight flush: 32 (0.029%) expected: 31 (0.0279%)
> > > > Royal flush: 4 (0.004%) expected: 4 (0.00323%)
> > > >
> > > > Four to a flush on board 4870 (4.349%)
> > > > expected: 4805 (4.29%)

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com

[Bing]

On 19 Sep 2003 16:46:29 GMT, "Whiffleboy" <anonymous@attbi.com> wrote:

> Yes. But what about the straights, flushes and sets or trips that folks
> say roll in all the time, crushing their big hands. You wouldn't
> necessarily need high cards for those.

But, if you could bias the flop to make high cards 10% more
likely than expected, for example, that would increase the
number of straights hit if, as was postulated, most players
played high cards.

It would also increase the number of full houses, but decrease
the number of flushes.

Note that I still don't have a definitive opinion as to whether
the sites are rigged or not, I'm just debating the scenario.

-- Bing Monopoly Expansion Set
Visit us at http://www.paxentertainment.com

[Peg Smith]

In article <3F6B2401.B7D2CC0C@lucent.com>, Nathan Stohler <nstohler@lucent.com>
writes:

> ...Four of a kind: 160 (0.143%) expected: 188 (0.168%)
> Straight flush: 32 (0.029%) expected: 31 (0.0279%)
> Royal flush: 4 (0.004%) expected: 4 (0.00323%)
>
>Look at the Four of a kind values. The actual result here is 14.9%
>less than the expected outcome: (.168 - .143)/.168 = 14.9%, which is
>a significant (but not far-fetched) difference.

He got fewer quads than expected, and was right on the money with straight
flushes. Wow, that puts a wee dent in those "I get more big hands online than
in B&M" screamers.

>You said "Every field is only less than 1/10th of a percent away of
>expected??" Can I assume you exaggerated?

I think we can assume he's determined to be unswayed by statistical evidence.
After so many whackos hollering for somebody to post evidence that the sites
aren't rigged, then getting some evidence and saying that IT is rigged, I think
it's pretty clear that they want to believe they're being cheated.

Like I said, it's just like arguing over religion--pointless.

Peg

[Beast]

Peg,

it is not like arguing over religion. It can be absolutely proven that the
sites are not rigged, if they choose to do so. They simply need to share
their source code. No one has ever given a decent answer as to why this
should not be done.

Also, I have never read anything in this forum which suggests that starting
hand combinations are not as they should be. I think most people agree
that they are. What is debated, are the amount of big hands that are beat
by bigger hands e.g the nut flush on the flop being beat by quads on the
river, etc. There is nothing in any of the stats posted of meaning to this
debate. For instance, it shows that the player received close the expected
ratio for all hands. The question is how many of those hands WON their
expected ratio. Not only that, if I win $30 with the nut flush in one hand
and then lost $200 with it in the next when quads hit the river, the win
percentage almost becomes irrelevant also.

None of the issues above can be adequately resolved by posting stats. They
can be completely put beyond doubt by opening the source code.

Peg Smith wrote:

> In article <3F6B2401.B7D2CC0C@lucent.com>, Nathan Stohler
> <nstohler@lucent.com> writes:
>
>> ...Four of a kind: 160 (0.143%) expected: 188 (0.168%)
>> Straight flush: 32 (0.029%) expected: 31 (0.0279%)
>> Royal flush: 4 (0.004%) expected: 4 (0.00323%)
>>
>>Look at the Four of a kind values. The actual result here is 14.9%
>>less than the expected outcome: (.168 - .143)/.168 = 14.9%, which is
>>a significant (but not far-fetched) difference.
>
> He got fewer quads than expected, and was right on the money with straight
> flushes. Wow, that puts a wee dent in those "I get more big hands online
> than in B&M" screamers.
>
>>You said "Every field is only less than 1/10th of a percent away of
>>expected??" Can I assume you exaggerated?
>
> I think we can assume he's determined to be unswayed by statistical
> evidence. After so many whackos hollering for somebody to post evidence
> that the sites aren't rigged, then getting some evidence and saying that
> IT is rigged, I think it's pretty clear that they want to believe they're
> being cheated.
>
> Like I said, it's just like arguing over religion--pointless.
>
> Peg

[pokerguy11]

> It can be absolutely proven that the
> sites are not rigged, if they choose to do so. They simply need to share
> their source code.
Unfortunately, it would not prove anything.
Who will prevent them to publish one (non-rigged)
code and use another (rigged)?

PS BTW, at least Party & Stars did share (pieces of) their
source code with third parties. Doesn't prove much though
- except that there is no unintentional bias.

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com

[jackdaniels]

I noticed that Price Waterhouse Cooper is certifying Paradise shuffles -
this sounds pretty good, but I agree with a previous poster - making
source code available would make this whole discussion moot, expecially
considering how many players are IT proffessionals, I'm sure we could
"police" the sites and make sure that they use the code they provide us
for scrutiny (and that too could be verified by a 3rd party like PWC).


--
jackdaniels
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Access RGP from Pokeritis.com, create a poker journal, and more.
http://www.pokeritis.com/forums
View this thread @ Pokeritis.com forums: http://www.pokeritis.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=21225

[Adam Trilling]

There's one part of this that worries me a bit:

> USER HAS ANY TWO SUITED CARDS (dealt 26462 times):
> Four flushes flopped: 3023 (11.42%)
> expected: 2896 (10.9%)
> When flop four flush, got flush: 1029 (34.04%)
> expected: 1057 (35.0%)

It seems that OP is flopping four-flushes more often than expected, and
those flushes get there less often than expected. This would tend to
generate action on the flop a disproportionate amount of the time, and
would lead to underdog hands winning a disproportionate amount of the
time.

This example is even worse:

> USER HAS ANY PAIR (dealt 7070 times):
> A set flopped: 873 (12.35%)
> expected: 796 (11.3%)
> When flop set, got boat or quads: 241 (27.61%)
> expected: 292 (33.4%)

This is a tiny sample, but a 6% difference between expectation and actual
is rather large.

> USER HAS OFFSUIT CONNECTORS FROM 54o to JTo (dealt 7059 times):
> Flopped open ended: 636 (9.01%)
> expected: 604 (8.55%)
> When open ended, got straight: 220 (34.59%)
> expected: 195 (30.7%)

I'd be interested to know how often these straights held up.


Adam Trilling
agt10@columbia.edu

[Peter Kovacs]

jackdaniels <jackdaniels.u7yay@pokerbonuscodes.com> wrote:
>
> I noticed that Price Waterhouse Cooper is certifying Paradise shuffles -
> this sounds pretty good, but I agree with a previous poster - making
> source code available would make this whole discussion moot, expecially
> considering how many players are IT proffessionals, I'm sure we could
> "police" the sites and make sure that they use the code they provide us
> for scrutiny (and that too could be verified by a 3rd party like PWC).

Unfortunately there would be absolutely no way to prove that the code
they are running on their servers is the same code that we are
reviewing. If they were rigged, they could simply take out that code
before handing it over to review. PWC reviews all the hand histories to
make sure that the deals are unbiased. While they could edit the logs
to make them unbiased, a fraud of this magnitude seems unlikely.

Personally, I think the whole "online poker is rigged" is laughable.
From a software development standpoint, developing algorithms to
create "action flops", etc, would be tremendously difficult. Its much
easier for them to let the cards come out as they may and collect a
juicy rake with each hand.

[billybob]

Bad Ass <Bad@ass.com> wrote in message news:<3f6b28a8$0$62076$75868355@news.frii.net>...
> I and three online poker playing friends use pokerstat and I am not
> aware of anyone ever finding any significant deveation from established
> norms. I just love it when poor players cry about games being fixed
> because obviously it cant have anything to do with chance or there poker
> playing skills. But what really gives me a chubby is when theese same
> players plop there money down every night.
>
> ** Posted via RGP ACCESS at http://www.LiveActionPoker.com
>
> ** Win a seat to the 2004 WSOP at http://www.FabulousPoker.com



> if you like card games the your sure to like GlobalCards

>http://www.globalcards.net/game1/index.php?ref=981207

The last digit of your spend determines how much you will win.
The payout can be up to 200% !!
The payout is instantly paid to your e-gold account in seconds.

<br>

http://www.globalcards.net/game1/index.php?ref=981207
<br>

http://www.globalcards.net/game2/index.php?ref=981207
<br>

http://www.globalcards.net/game3/index.php?ref=981207