Re: Online Hacking

[wamplerr]

"Think this through a bit. If you were able to hack an online site,
can't you figure out a quicker way to make money? I wouldn't be
wasiting my time cheating at poker. I'd just take the money, wash it a
few times, and run.
As for the cheating part, think some more. In order to cheat, a trojan
horse, or similar hack would need to be on the app server. You'd need to
determine their configuration controls, and bypass them and install your
own application. This would generate additional network traffic, which
may be monitored. It would be too easy to be caught. Nope, I think this
is bullshit."

I don't know about all that. I would think if you stole money directly
from the site, rather than from the players, you would have a very
difficult time getting it into your pocket. But like I said, I don't
know about any of this network traffic or anything. My only point was,
if the guy does have knowledge of hole cards and is somehow getting away
with it, why isn't it worth $100K for the technology? As a player, I'm
hoping the answer is because the technology doesn't exist.

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RGP ACCESS at http://www.LiveActionPoker.com

[Augie Chiausa]

"wamplerr" <wamplerr@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3f26b957$0$196$75868355@news.frii.net...
> "Think this through a bit. If you were able to hack an online site,
> can't you figure out a quicker way to make money? I wouldn't be
> wasiting my time cheating at poker. I'd just take the money, wash it a
> few times, and run.
> As for the cheating part, think some more. In order to cheat, a trojan
> horse, or similar hack would need to be on the app server. You'd need to
> determine their configuration controls, and bypass them and install your
> own application. This would generate additional network traffic, which
> may be monitored. It would be too easy to be caught. Nope, I think this
> is bullshit."
>
> I don't know about all that. I would think if you stole money directly
> from the site, rather than from the players, you would have a very
> difficult time getting it into your pocket. But like I said, I don't
> know about any of this network traffic or anything. My only point was,
> if the guy does have knowledge of hole cards and is somehow getting away
> with it, why isn't it worth $100K for the technology? As a player, I'm
> hoping the answer is because the technology doesn't exist.

The only way I can see this existing, is if a corrupt programmer, working
for the site, were able to bypass internal controls, and install a trojan
horse. Since I don't believe that it would make sense for this person to
cold call someone trying to sell it (it would make more sense to partner
with someone, or put on a disguise and play it yourself}. If the post is in
fact true, which I'm cynical about, it's more likely a confidence game where
the specific machine were hacked, and the screen dumped to another computer.
The AQ guy would probably be a confederate. I also wonder why the hand
history weren't included in the post. If someone tried to pull this on me,
the first thing I'd do is get the hand history. If I weren't suckered into
considering becoming a cheat, I'd share this history with the group, and
support.

BTW, it would also be pretty easy to determine if your machine were hacked,
and the supporting systems of the hacker.

>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Posted using RGP ACCESS at http://www.LiveActionPoker.com

[John T. Kennedy]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:47:09 GMT, "Augie Chiausa"
<achiausa@bellatlantic.net> wrote:

>The only way I can see this existing, is if a corrupt programmer, working
>for the site, were able to bypass internal controls, and install a trojan
>horse.

How about a trojan that got passed around promiscuously by means other
than the PS site, and remained inert until it detected an operating
game client? Then it wakes up and passes the clien IO or display back
to the originator.

Possible, I think.

[Augie Chiausa]

"John T. Kennedy" <jtk3@no-treason.com> wrote in message
news:dhjdiv4a2tncrt1hldessjefecvbq3vt03@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:47:09 GMT, "Augie Chiausa"
> <achiausa@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>
> >The only way I can see this existing, is if a corrupt programmer, working
> >for the site, were able to bypass internal controls, and install a trojan
> >horse.
>
> How about a trojan that got passed around promiscuously by means other
> than the PS site, and remained inert until it detected an operating
> game client? Then it wakes up and passes the clien IO or display back
> to the originator.
>
> Possible, I think.
>

Too easily detected. My computer warns me whenever a program tries to
access the web. If it's not in my trusted host list, it doesn't go out.

[Augie Chiausa]

"Greg Swann" <gswann@presenceofmind.net> wrote in message
news:gswann-81B007.13292029072003@news.west.cox.net...
> In article <dhjdiv4a2tncrt1hldessjefecvbq3vt03@4ax.com>, John T.
> Kennedy <jtk3@no-treason.com> wrote:
>
> >Possible, I think.
>
> Except for the 128-bit encryption. Except
> for the rooms watching everything all the
> time, since their reputation for integrity
> is their SOLE capital. Except for the utter
> lack of evidence, beyond the claims of
> known liars.
>

The encryption would avoid any line sniffing capability. But once a trojan
horse is on your computer, detection of opening graphics files would be
fairly simple. Since each individual card has it's own file, it wouldn't be
very difficult to determine a dealt hand. The problem would be to get by
firewalls to transmit the card information to cheats.

BTW, my priority of belief is:

1) Russ is completely full of shit.

2) Someone is trying to run a scam on him, since he's a know cheating
scumbag.

> Stop trafficking in speculation upon lies
> propagated by known liars.

Nothing wrong with a bit of mental masterbation. Russ has his share of rube
groupies, but most people don't believe much of what he says anyway.

>
> Yikes!
>
> Greg Swann
> http://www.presenceofmind.net/

[Greg Swann]

In article <ZsBVa.1143$yv1.683@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>, "Augie Chiausa"
<achiausa@bellatlantic.net> wrote:

>> Stop trafficking in speculation upon lies
>> propagated by known liars.

>Nothing wrong with a bit of mental masterbation.

I think there is. These JO sessions damage
the reputations of people you have no reason
to doubt, to the benefit of a confessed cheat
you have no reason to trust.

Greg Swann
http://www.presenceofmind.net/

[J12325]

Any computer, any program can be hacked if someone wants to bad enough and has
the knowledge. On the other hand most of those complaining about online poker
being hacked is just B.S. from people who've manged to hit a loosing streak or
had a bad beat and can't accept the fact that both are normal.

[John T. Kennedy]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 20:20:23 GMT, "Augie Chiausa"
<achiausa@bellatlantic.net> wrote:

>
>"John T. Kennedy" <jtk3@no-treason.com> wrote in message
>news:dhjdiv4a2tncrt1hldessjefecvbq3vt03@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:47:09 GMT, "Augie Chiausa"
>> <achiausa@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>>
>> >The only way I can see this existing, is if a corrupt programmer, working
>> >for the site, were able to bypass internal controls, and install a trojan
>> >horse.
>>
>> How about a trojan that got passed around promiscuously by means other
>> than the PS site, and remained inert until it detected an operating
>> game client? Then it wakes up and passes the clien IO or display back
>> to the originator.
>>
>> Possible, I think.
>>
>
>Too easily detected. My computer warns me whenever a program tries to
>access the web. If it's not in my trusted host list, it doesn't go out.
>

Still possible, the trojan could detect firewall sw and remain passive
when it's active. It may not work on your machine, but still on
others. It is important to avoid detection, because once the trojan is
detected the client software can include countermeasures.

[John T. Kennedy]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:29:20 -0700, Greg Swann
<gswann@presenceofmind.net> wrote:

>In article <dhjdiv4a2tncrt1hldessjefecvbq3vt03@4ax.com>, John T.
>Kennedy <jtk3@no-treason.com> wrote:
>
>>Possible, I think.
>
>Except for the 128-bit encryption.

Go Greg, my idea completely sidesteps the encryption. Encryption
doesn't help you when I'm looking over your shoulder.

>Except
>for the rooms watching everything all the
>time, since their reputation for integrity
>is their SOLE capital.

This doesn't really bear on the moral integrity of the cardrooms, does
the fact that collusion certainly takes place online destroy the
reputaions of the cardrooms? It doesn't even dent it in my mind, the
cardrooms can't make the world safe.


>Except for the utter
>lack of evidence, beyond the claims of
>known liars.

I don't claim that such a trojan exists, only that it could be
written. At least I don't see why not.

>Stop trafficking in speculation upon lies
>propagated by known liars.
>
>Yikes!


I'll speculate on whatever strikes my fancy Greg. I'm not offering
this as an explanation for RG's story, it's more likely he's making it
up or that someone was attempting to con him personally.

But there is nothing wrong with me speculating about ways online poker
could be hacked.

[John T. Kennedy]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 21:14:33 GMT, "Augie Chiausa"
<achiausa@bellatlantic.net> wrote:

>The encryption would avoid any line sniffing capability. But once a trojan
>horse is on your computer, detection of opening graphics files would be
>fairly simple. Since each individual card has it's own file, it wouldn't be
>very difficult to determine a dealt hand. The problem would be to get by
>firewalls to transmit the card information to cheats.

You could simply go dormant where firewalls exist and forget about
those machines. I bet you'll find plenty of clients that aren't behind
firewalls.

Or you could get tricky about trying to get the user to open up the
firewall, like asking for access when the poker client isn't even
running.

>BTW, my priority of belief is:
>
>1) Russ is completely full of shit.
>
>2) Someone is trying to run a scam on him, since he's a know cheating
>scumbag.

My read is along those lines, I thought it was pretty clear I wasn't
trying to explain the reported behavior with this idea.

[pokerguy11]

> My computer warns me whenever a program tries to
> access the web.
Laughing sinisterly.

Bad news from Bill Gates:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/columns/security/essays/10imlaws.asp
"
Ten Immutable Laws of Security
By Scott Culp October 2000
Microsoft Security Response Center

Law 1
If a bad guy can persuade you to run his program on your computer,
it’s not your computer anymore.
"
How many downloaded programs did you run on your
computer since clean Windows installation? It is not
your computer anymore.

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com

[Greg Swann]

In article <0paeiv0ojfroadnbsqt7olrv4e2vt0r0la@4ax.com>, John T.
Kennedy <jtk3@no-treason.com> wrote:

>But there is nothing wrong with me speculating about ways online poker
>could be hacked

If Russ invented an outrageous lie about you
and others here pondered about how it might
possibly be true, I expect you would have no
trouble understanding the issue. Poisoning
the well while insisting you're seeking
prophylaxis is still well-poisoning.

--GSS

[John T. Kennedy]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:26:06 -0700, Greg Swann
<gswann@presenceofmind.net> wrote:

>If Russ invented an outrageous lie about you
>and others here pondered about how it might
>possibly be true, I expect you would have no
>trouble understanding the issue.

I'm surprised you'd imagine this would bother me Greg, it wouldn't. I
have not taken personal offense at anything on the net in years,
though the offers keep rolling in. And I don't believe any such lie or
speculation could damage my reputation with people I value. In fact it
would be a litmus test: I'd have no use for someone who bought it.

But who do you think the outrageous lie is about in this case?

[Greg Swann]

In article <cnneivo52vn1f7cp7p1k53rvr6njehgu68@4ax.com>, John T.
Kennedy <jtk3@no-treason.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:26:06 -0700, Greg Swann
><gswann@presenceofmind.net> wrote:

>>If Russ invented an outrageous lie about you
>>and others here pondered about how it might
>>possibly be true, I expect you would have no
>>trouble understanding the issue.

>I'm surprised you'd imagine this would bother me Greg, it wouldn't. I
>have not taken personal offense at anything on the net in years,
>though the offers keep rolling in. And I don't believe any such lie or
>speculation could damage my reputation with people I value. In fact it
>would be a litmus test: I'd have no use for someone who bought it.

That notwithstanding, you are well-poisoning. It
would amount to idle gossip, except the conflagration
of gossip is sparked by a scintilla of fact, where
this is based in nothing but an obvious lie told by
an incorrigible liar. Your protests are stupidly vain;
you would object to having your reputation for integrity
in business defamed. But that you claim you would not be
offended does not mean you are not offending. To the
contrary. It's a tort defamation case, and a slam dunk
at that.

But, of course, you know that.

Greg Swann
http://www.presenceofmind.net/

[Venger]

hmmm so everyone likes to believe that online poker is 100% unhackable
(i.e server side hack,not the clientside hack)!???

Ifso why not lay this challenge to ALL the major poker sites out
there?

Each site put's a sum of money (say $50,000 - $100,000). The challenge
is simple, The first person/group that can hack into the poker site of
their choice that partcipate in this challenge. The hacked site would
pay the winning person/group the 'prize'.

So why put up a prize money? Well at the end of the day it is almost
like hiring a firm to test your security. The only slight difference
being you will be attracting possibly a few of the 'real' hackers out
on the net who might want to make a quick LEGAL buck (and not those
silly script kiddies who have no real idea what they are doing).

Simple little challenge to ensure confidence in the whole market. I
mean after all if the sites are 100% behind their security surely they
have nothing to FEAR issuing a challenge out onto the net
RIGHT???????????????????

[John T. Kennedy]

On 30 Jul 2003 02:58:38 -0700, dark_venger@hotmail.com (Venger) wrote:

>So why put up a prize money?

There's already a big cash prize waiting for anyone who can hack an
online card room....

[Steve Brecher]

"Greg Swann" <gswann@presenceofmind.net> wrote:
> In article <dhjdiv4a2tncrt1hldessjefecvbq3vt03@4ax.com>, John T.
> Kennedy <jtk3@no-treason.com> wrote:
>
> >Possible, I think.

Here is the full context, i.e., what Kennedy claimed is possible:

>>How about a trojan that got passed around promiscuously by means other
>>than the PS site, and remained inert until it detected an operating
>>game client? Then it wakes up and passes the clien IO or display back
>>to the originator.

> Except for the 128-bit encryption. Except
> for the rooms watching everything all the
> time, since their reputation for integrity
> is their SOLE capital. Except for the utter
> lack of evidence, beyond the claims of
> known liars.

None of that is relevant to the claim that Trojan horses -- software that,
unbeknownst to the player, runs on the player's computer and transmits
information such as hole cards -- are a potential danger to online poker
players. A Trojan can, at the very least, use screen-scraping to obtain
information. Online poker players should be alert to this possibility; in
practice one thing that means is being aware of the risk of installing any
software, particularly poker-related software, from an untrusted source.

--
For mail, please use my surname where indicated:
steve@surname.reno.nv.us (Steve Brecher)

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