You are aware I have nut nut right?

[Graham Ribchester]

Okay it was naughty of me, but when he bet the river right into me, I
thought it was fairly obvious to all what I had.
What surprises me about the game of Omaha 8 is how sometimes you have to
work really hard to disguise your hand just to win a few bucks (think
pokerstars) and sometimes you have to make no effort at all (think
partypoker)

I am thankful to Rzitup that he had just left this game as I sat down.

***** Hand History for Game 204594721 *****
0/0 OmahaHiLoGameTable (PL) - Tue Oct 14 18:52:17 EDT 2003
Table Cosa Nostra (Real Money) -- Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: bpygon ( $96)
Seat 2: wrk914 ( $98)
Seat 3: tazman3618 ( $116)
Seat 4: flynnmclean ( $100)
Seat 5: gmoney69er ( $107.80)
Seat 6: JamesVVVVVV ( $197.20)
Seat 7: RazorRan ( $0)
Seat 8: Ribbo ( $191)
Seat 9: johnnyrose ( $114.40)
Seat 10: lukesky ( $233.20)
johnnyrose posts small blind (1)
lukesky posts big blind (2)
flynnmclean posts big blind (2)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Ribbo [ 5c, Ac, 2s, 2h ]
bpygon calls (2)
wrk914 folds.
tazman3618 calls (2)
flynnmclean checks.
gmoney69er calls (2)
JamesVVVVVV raises (15) to 15
Ribbo calls (15)
johnnyrose folds.
lukesky folds.
bpygon calls (13)
tazman3618 calls (13)
flynnmclean folds.
gmoney69er calls (13)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4c, Qc, 3c ]
bpygon checks.
tazman3618 checks.
gmoney69er folds.
JamesVVVVVV checks.
Ribbo bets (15)
bpygon calls (15)
tazman3618 calls (15)
JamesVVVVVV calls (15)

Okay so I flopped the stone cold nuts, plus a nut low draw that I cant lose
on if it hits, my only decision is how much to bet on the flop. Well I want
them to call. I also know my hand is not vulnerable. $1/$2 blind tables have
some people with a clue, so I expect to see other A2 and of course the
preflop raiser with AA. There shouldn't be anyone with a set here unless
they have A2 also.

** Dealing Turn ** : [ 6s ]
bpygon checks.
tazman3618 bets (50)
JamesVVVVVV calls (50)
Ribbo raises (100) to 100
bpygon calls (66)
bpygon calls all-In.
tazman3618 calls (36)
tazman3618 calls all-In.
JamesVVVVVV calls (50)
Creating Main Pot with $401 with bpygon
Creating Side Pot 1 with $60 with tazman3618

I just cannot understand what has just happen here, I have the stone cold
nuts and people are getting their chips in before me. Guess I have no
decisions to make, raise and hope they put me on A2 no high.

** Dealing River ** : [ 5h ]
JamesVVVVVV bets (67.20)
JamesVVVVVV calls all-In.
Ribbo: you are aware i have nut nut right???
Ribbo calls (61)
Ribbo calls all-In.
Creating Side Pot 2 with $150 with Ribbo
Creating Side Pot 3 with $6.20 with JamesVVVVVV
** Summary **
Main Pot: $401 | Side Pot 1: $60 | Side Pot 2: $150 | Side Pot 3: $6.20 |
Rake: $3
Board: [ 4c Qc 3c 6s 5h ]
bpygon balance $66.90, bet $96, collected $66.90, lost -$29.10 [ 7c 2c As
4d ] [ LO: 5,4,3,2,A | HI: a flush, queen high -- Qc,7c,4c,3c,2c ]
wrk914 balance $98, didn't bet (folded)
tazman3618 balance $0, lost $116 [ Tc Jd Kc 9d ] [ a flush, king high with
king kicker -- Kc,Qc,Tc,4c,3c ]
flynnmclean balance $98, lost $2 (folded)
gmoney69er balance $92.80, lost $15 (folded)
JamesVVVVVV balance $125.50, bet $197.20, collected $125.50, lost -$71.70
[ Ah 2d Td Ad ] [ LO: 5,4,3,2,A | HI: a straight, ace to five --
Ah,5h,4c,3c,2d ]
RazorRan balance $100, sits out
Ribbo balance $424.80, bet $191, collected $424.80, net +$233.80 [ 5c Ac 2s
2h ] [ LO: 5,4,3,2,A | HI: a flush, ace high with ace kicker --
Ac,Qc,5c,4c,3c ]
johnnyrose balance $113.40, lost $1 (folded)
lukesky balance $231.20, lost $2 (folded)

I think the most import things to realise from this hand history is 1: The
button is worth a lot of money to you. You will win big pots and you will
dictate the betting. 2: People REALLY have to learn what a milking bet is.
Take the guy with AA2 on the flop. It's a horrible flop and considering the
callers preflop, he HAS to think the other A2s are out there, he is behind
on the flop and he is calling to get half if he is VERY lucky, a quarter
most likely, and if god really hates him a sixth, which is exactly what
happened.
Again Omaha is a flop game and no matter what you had preflop, if you miss
the flop, you gotta lay it down against the tricky players (ie me :D )

[Ray Trautman]

Maybe I don't understand Omaha correctly since I've never played it
but I don't know how you can know you have the "nuts" after the flop
without knowing what the others have in their hand. With the others
holding four cards each any four of a kind or straight flush beats
your current ace high club flush.

If it were hold'em it's easy to pick out the nuts but in omaha I don't
see how you can say you flopped the "stone cold nuts" when someone
holding four of a kind or a straight flush could have you drawing dead
on the turn and river.

What am I missing?

Remember, I'm new to poker so I may be missing a lot.

Ray Trautman

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:32:13 +0000 (UTC), "Graham Ribchester"
<ribmeister@excite.com> wrote:

>Okay it was naughty of me, but when he bet the river right into me, I
>thought it was fairly obvious to all what I had.
>What surprises me about the game of Omaha 8 is how sometimes you have to
>work really hard to disguise your hand just to win a few bucks (think
>pokerstars) and sometimes you have to make no effort at all (think
>partypoker)
>
>I am thankful to Rzitup that he had just left this game as I sat down.
>
>***** Hand History for Game 204594721 *****
>0/0 OmahaHiLoGameTable (PL) - Tue Oct 14 18:52:17 EDT 2003
>Table Cosa Nostra (Real Money) -- Seat 8 is the button
>Total number of players : 10
>Seat 1: bpygon ( $96)
>Seat 2: wrk914 ( $98)
>Seat 3: tazman3618 ( $116)
>Seat 4: flynnmclean ( $100)
>Seat 5: gmoney69er ( $107.80)
>Seat 6: JamesVVVVVV ( $197.20)
>Seat 7: RazorRan ( $0)
>Seat 8: Ribbo ( $191)
>Seat 9: johnnyrose ( $114.40)
>Seat 10: lukesky ( $233.20)
>johnnyrose posts small blind (1)
>lukesky posts big blind (2)
>flynnmclean posts big blind (2)
>** Dealing down cards **
>Dealt to Ribbo [ 5c, Ac, 2s, 2h ]
>bpygon calls (2)
>wrk914 folds.
>tazman3618 calls (2)
>flynnmclean checks.
>gmoney69er calls (2)
>JamesVVVVVV raises (15) to 15
>Ribbo calls (15)
>johnnyrose folds.
>lukesky folds.
>bpygon calls (13)
>tazman3618 calls (13)
>flynnmclean folds.
>gmoney69er calls (13)
>** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4c, Qc, 3c ]
>bpygon checks.
>tazman3618 checks.
>gmoney69er folds.
>JamesVVVVVV checks.
>Ribbo bets (15)
>bpygon calls (15)
>tazman3618 calls (15)
>JamesVVVVVV calls (15)
>
>Okay so I flopped the stone cold nuts, plus a nut low draw that I cant lose
>on if it hits, my only decision is how much to bet on the flop. Well I want
>them to call. I also know my hand is not vulnerable. $1/$2 blind tables have
>some people with a clue, so I expect to see other A2 and of course the
>preflop raiser with AA. There shouldn't be anyone with a set here unless
>they have A2 also.
>
>** Dealing Turn ** : [ 6s ]
>bpygon checks.
>tazman3618 bets (50)
>JamesVVVVVV calls (50)
>Ribbo raises (100) to 100
>bpygon calls (66)
>bpygon calls all-In.
>tazman3618 calls (36)
>tazman3618 calls all-In.
>JamesVVVVVV calls (50)
>Creating Main Pot with $401 with bpygon
>Creating Side Pot 1 with $60 with tazman3618
>
>I just cannot understand what has just happen here, I have the stone cold
>nuts and people are getting their chips in before me. Guess I have no
>decisions to make, raise and hope they put me on A2 no high.
>
>** Dealing River ** : [ 5h ]
>JamesVVVVVV bets (67.20)
>JamesVVVVVV calls all-In.
>Ribbo: you are aware i have nut nut right???
>Ribbo calls (61)
>Ribbo calls all-In.
>Creating Side Pot 2 with $150 with Ribbo
>Creating Side Pot 3 with $6.20 with JamesVVVVVV
>** Summary **
>Main Pot: $401 | Side Pot 1: $60 | Side Pot 2: $150 | Side Pot 3: $6.20 |
>Rake: $3
>Board: [ 4c Qc 3c 6s 5h ]
>bpygon balance $66.90, bet $96, collected $66.90, lost -$29.10 [ 7c 2c As
>4d ] [ LO: 5,4,3,2,A | HI: a flush, queen high -- Qc,7c,4c,3c,2c ]
>wrk914 balance $98, didn't bet (folded)
>tazman3618 balance $0, lost $116 [ Tc Jd Kc 9d ] [ a flush, king high with
>king kicker -- Kc,Qc,Tc,4c,3c ]
>flynnmclean balance $98, lost $2 (folded)
>gmoney69er balance $92.80, lost $15 (folded)
>JamesVVVVVV balance $125.50, bet $197.20, collected $125.50, lost -$71.70
>[ Ah 2d Td Ad ] [ LO: 5,4,3,2,A | HI: a straight, ace to five --
>Ah,5h,4c,3c,2d ]
>RazorRan balance $100, sits out
>Ribbo balance $424.80, bet $191, collected $424.80, net +$233.80 [ 5c Ac 2s
>2h ] [ LO: 5,4,3,2,A | HI: a flush, ace high with ace kicker --
>Ac,Qc,5c,4c,3c ]
>johnnyrose balance $113.40, lost $1 (folded)
>lukesky balance $231.20, lost $2 (folded)
>
>I think the most import things to realise from this hand history is 1: The
>button is worth a lot of money to you. You will win big pots and you will
>dictate the betting. 2: People REALLY have to learn what a milking bet is.
>Take the guy with AA2 on the flop. It's a horrible flop and considering the
>callers preflop, he HAS to think the other A2s are out there, he is behind
>on the flop and he is calling to get half if he is VERY lucky, a quarter
>most likely, and if god really hates him a sixth, which is exactly what
>happened.
>Again Omaha is a flop game and no matter what you had preflop, if you miss
>the flop, you gotta lay it down against the tricky players (ie me :D )
>

[Ray Trautman]

Not to mention the even easier full house that anyone could be
holding.

[Jon Ingellis]

"Ray Trautman" <ray@squidly.net> wrote in message
news:k17povgiupmn5jrgh7fegfjhtb0a36i5c9@4ax.com...

>
> What am I missing?
>
> Remember, I'm new to poker so I may be missing a lot.

You are definitely missing a lot. :) Read up on the very basic rules of
Omaha..

[Ray Trautman]

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 01:28:09 GMT, "Jon Ingellis"
<ingellis@castcom.net> wrote:

>
>"Ray Trautman" <ray@squidly.net> wrote in message
>news:k17povgiupmn5jrgh7fegfjhtb0a36i5c9@4ax.com...
>
>>
>> What am I missing?
>>
>> Remember, I'm new to poker so I may be missing a lot.
>
>You are definitely missing a lot. :) Read up on the very basic rules of
>Omaha..
>

Ok, reading complete. I was missing this critical piece of
information.

"* One must use *exactly* three community cards and two hole cards to
make one's hand."

It's all making sense now. I'm glad I never sat down at a omaha table
thinking I could use all four hole cards.

Thanks,

Ray Trautman

[Alex]

Ray,
In Omaha you MUST use 2 and only 2 of you hole cards to make your best
poker hand, (hi and low) so he did in fact he did flop the nuts...That's not
to say Jon could not have been beaten on the turn or river, but with the
cards that came knew he was not vulnerable.
Alex

"Ray Trautman" <ray@squidly.net> wrote in message
news:j1apov49veumj9rufjgtkufj8dahnm9ci1@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 01:28:09 GMT, "Jon Ingellis"
> <ingellis@castcom.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Ray Trautman" <ray@squidly.net> wrote in message
> >news:k17povgiupmn5jrgh7fegfjhtb0a36i5c9@4ax.com...
> >
> >>
> >> What am I missing?
> >>
> >> Remember, I'm new to poker so I may be missing a lot.
> >
> >You are definitely missing a lot. :) Read up on the very basic rules
of
> >Omaha..
> >
>
> Ok, reading complete. I was missing this critical piece of
> information.
>
> "* One must use *exactly* three community cards and two hole cards to
> make one's hand."
>
> It's all making sense now. I'm glad I never sat down at a omaha table
> thinking I could use all four hole cards.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray Trautman

[Tosspot]

Ray Trautman wrote:

> Maybe I don't understand Omaha correctly since I've never played it
> but I don't know how you can know you have the "nuts" after the flop
> without knowing what the others have in their hand. With the others
> holding four cards each any four of a kind or straight flush beats
> your current ace high club flush.

Terminology. He didn't flop the absolute nuts, but the nut flush, which
is probably good enough, and with an A2 as well, it was a license to
print money.

His observation on being quartered was useful, you *have* to lay down
early or you wind up paying to minimise your loss.

[Raider Fan]

On Oct 14 2003 1:15PM, Ray Trautman wrote:

> Maybe I don't understand Omaha correctly since I've never played it
> but I don't know how you can know you have the "nuts" after the flop
> without knowing what the others have in their hand. With the others
> holding four cards each any four of a kind or straight flush beats
> your current ace high club flush.

<snip>

You use 2 and only 2 of your four cards for the high and 2 cards for low.
4 of a kind, full house, straight flush, etc. aren't possible unless the
board makes them possible. For example, Ribbo's Ace-high flush is the nut
until a pair shows up on the board. That's what usually happens when I
flop the nut flush.

_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com

[Daniel Testa]

"Raider Fan" <anonymous@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3f8d1f31$0$69362$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>...
> On Oct 14 2003 1:15PM, Ray Trautman wrote:
>
> > Maybe I don't understand Omaha correctly since I've never played it
> > but I don't know how you can know you have the "nuts" after the flop
> > without knowing what the others have in their hand. With the others
> > holding four cards each any four of a kind or straight flush beats
> > your current ace high club flush.
>
> <snip>
>
> You use 2 and only 2 of your four cards for the high and 2 cards for low.
> 4 of a kind, full house, straight flush, etc. aren't possible unless the
> board makes them possible. For example, Ribbo's Ace-high flush is the nut
> until a pair shows up on the board. That's what usually happens when I
> flop the nut flush.

Another way that Ribbo can lose is if the turn and river make a
possible straight flush with the Q. For example if the JT of clubs
comes up on the turn and river, someone with K9 or 98 of clubs would
have a better hand than Ribbo.

[J. Michael Hammond]

Ray Trautman <ray@squidly.net> wrote in message news:<j1apov49veumj9rufjgtkufj8dahnm9ci1@4ax.com>...
> Ok, reading complete. I was missing this critical piece of
> information.
>
> "* One must use *exactly* three community cards and two hole cards to
> make one's hand."
>
> It's all making sense now. I'm glad I never sat down at a omaha table
> thinking I could use all four hole cards.

I made the opposite error the first night I played in a home game in
the dorm library my freshman year.

They played several not-quite-Omaha variations, where the common rule
among them was that you could use any number of your hole cards. So
common they forgot to tell me in the confused babble of at least three
MIT geeks talking simultaneously trying to quickly explain the rules
to me the newbie and out-efficient-table-cop each other in the
process.

So the first big pot I got involved in (five ways, capped on the turn,
river, state line, and I don't know what you'd call a sixth round of
betting), I proudly turned over the "nut low" to sudden awkward
silence.

That four-and-a-half dollar loss was a large part of why I'm such a
persnickety rules lawyer to this day. I'm sure innate tendency had a
lot to do with it too. And Doug, in the 0.001% chance you're reading
this, I still blame you for that hand as you were the primary table
cop at the time. Have a nice day :)

--JMike
p.s. ok ok, what is the relevance here -- Ray, please go read the
rules of the common card room poker variants VERY CAREFULLY. As you
said, it's good you made this mistake on a newsgroup (where the only
cost is that thousands of people briefly think you're a goofball and a
few dozen of us jump all over you but in the final analysis it really
doesn't matter a damn) rather than in a card room (where it could cost
you something actually important like money!).