GCA "NO LIMIT or POT LIMIT" Theory Rerun
From: Newgca (newgca@aol.com)
Subject: GCA "NO LIMIT or POT LIMIT" Theory Rerun
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Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker
Date: 2003-05-17 01:32:45 PST
From: Newgca (newgca@aol.com)
Subject: GCA "NO LIMIT or POT LIMIT" Theory Rerun
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Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker
Date: 2002-12-26 02:23:19 PST
No Limit or Pot Limit
When speaking of holdem, the best way to play this game is pot limit.
Limit is an acceptable way to play any game, though far from the
most skillful. Playing holdem for maximum results with the best player
having the best chance of winning should only be done in one manner,
that is pot limit.
You will get clowns or the incompetents stating that No Limit
is the best way to play this game, but this has been a fallacy perpetrated
on the public since they brought the WSOP into play. The pot limit
players of the world are the best players. Certain games need a
no limit structure, such as low-ball [any variation], five card stud [any
variation], but not holdem. Holdem should be played in a pot limit style for
the best players to have the greatest edge.
Believe me when I say, pot limit separates the men from the boys.
No Limit requires great skill, however if No Limit requires great skill, go
to the ten power to understand the difference between the two games. I will
go into detail on why soon. Any one with any ability can play No Limit
holdem. As long as they are aggressive, they have a chance. Far more chance
than they would have in Pot Limit. How much brain power must you have to
stick all your chips into the pot anytime? Reading any book
will give you the knowledge of knowing when you can 'flip the coin' or stick
all your money in with a coin flip type of outcome. Same as picking a pro
football game with the spread.
Take a game of No Limit or Pot Limit with the blinds being $15-$25. Normally
the buy-in on a game would be about 40 times the large blind, though some
games may make it 20 times the large blind. We are not here to
discuss the buy-in. It will be one of the two, or close enough to where it
doesn't make a difference.
No Limit players can play the game with limited success, provided there
stack doesn't get too big. Most No Limit players, and I mean most No Limit
players know very few moves, even if considered to be world class. The
reason is there are fewer moves to know.
Take a game as I mentioned, with blinds of $15-$25. Have your
player buy into the game with the normal buy-in of $1000. It is
very easy for him to play this game. Far easier than pot limit. In fact, I
believe I could train a monkey, Dave Keiser, or even a Razzo to play this
game where they could become winning players in a short period. Playing No
Limit requires 3 moves. The opening, getting the raise or betting
the flop, and stacking off on the turn. Making it even simpler, opening,
getting a raise, and stacking off before the flop. Very simple, even a
monkey could be trained to do this.
They turn the cards over and one person is an 11-10 favorite or a 6-5
favorite. Big deal, for as often as these guys are the favorite, they are
also the dog. However when they are not, you don't see this or even understand
this. The play begins when these people get larger stacks, as when they get
their stack to $5000. Do you think by playing very tight and having your
opposition know what you hold when you play a hand, you will be able to hold
onto your chips? The answer is NO.
You see games in No Limit and in Pot Limit where some people have Big Stacks
as compared to small stacks. The better players always want to
cover all stacks. The players who aren't so good, prefer to play a smaller
stack. There is a skill to playing both stacks, however the skill
to playing a large stack in comparison to a small stack is so great
the ones playing the small stacks are limited to their potential, as they
must quit when they reach a certain amount because they don't know how to play
a
big stack.
Take a No Limit situation where the blinds are $15-$25. Easy to play when
your stack is $1000. What happens when you make a few hands and your stack
gets to $5000 or more? You are playing one a hand a half hour, and at this
level your opposition knows this. What do you do when you are dealt AA?
Raise a lot, raise a small amount. raise a larger amount. No matter what you
do, players will realize you have not been playing many hands and will play
many hands against you, provided they can cover your stack and you stack is
large enough to go after.
Number 1 lesson in No Limit or Pot Limit poker is not to tell the opposition
what you have, until the majority of the money is committed to the pot. This
is where the strength of the best players lay. Once you tell your
opposition what you have, they know what they must do to win or to minimize
your position. Believe it or not, I was once fortunate enough to have a
proposition given to me where we both bought $10,000 worth of chips in a no
limit holdem game and I gave the opposition two black aces. One stipulation,
he could not stack off until after the flop. Blinds were $15-$25. Needless
to say, he lost within the first few minutes when a flop came 2,3,4, and I
held 5,6,. He had made it $100 as usual, before the flop, the rule being 4
times the big blind. Then stacked off every time after the flop.
Think of this while playing No Limit for cash. This is one of the reasons
that the tournament players have no chance against the cash players.[I will
leave cheating out of this post] The cash players can always put these
tournament champions on a hand. While a cash player can have anything and
will gamble with it, the tournament player doesn't have the skills, as far
as even giving you a free card, when warranted to trap you.
Hopefully, I have explained to you that most No Limit players know only the
most basic moves, compared to the Pot Limit Players.
Now we come to the Pot Limit Players. The best Pot Limit Players always have
big stacks. They think more like chess players as they know 3 bets isn't
going to get the job done. The dominant Pot Limit players usually divide the
table into sections. Position is everything and Pot Limit and No Limit
players know this. Don't think you will get position on a good or great
No Limit or Pot Limit player. It isn't going to happen. Best way to face
this situation is to space yourself between each other and divide the table.
I know if a player with a big stack sat down behind me, I would just offer
the player behind him $100 or more to change seats. In fact, I have paid as
much as $2600 to change seats in a game.
This is why you should not attempt to gain position on the other players you
consider you opposition. Always space yourself at least 2 seats between the
opposition. Some times they will have to give you a seat the best of it.
Believe it, they do know and seat changing is a variant that occurs as
frequently as possible in these games. It is almost comical as they may be
playing four handed and everyone is sitting next to each other. One of the
ways to get more room is to lock the seat up to your left. Courtesy will
allow you to have space, but don't you believe that another individual can
take that seat without your permission.
Now we get to Pot Limit games, the games where the best professionals excel.
Pot Limit players realize they must think many moves ahead in this game. They
understand they must play more hands than usual, when playing big stacks.
The edge with the big stack is everyone knows if they [little
stacks] screw up, they go broke. The big stack knows this also and
plays accordingly, never telling his opposition anything, especially the
small stack. These he will gamble with on many occasions knowing he may have
the worst of it, but also knowing when they get larger stacks, these people
are his, provided they don't quit.
World Class Professionals will play Aces before the flop the same way they
will play any type of hand, you won't know. They will let you raise,wait,
hoping to get a raise behind them to enable to get the
majority of the money in before the flop. If they can't so be it. They will
do everything they can, and you will have no idea to what they have. They
continue to play the hand after the flop.
Many times they have nothing, but you have told them what you
hold. Boards like 6,7,8 and similar boards are dangerous to the people
that play extremely tight. Those without the moves needed to play big stacks
are most susceptible. Since bluffing is such a large part of the game, they
will use the 'call bluff' when certain flops come down, gambling on the
large pair you have. When you have a large stack and you are a No Limit
player, you are a Pot Limit players dinner. You can't stack off and they
know how to get position, since this is the name of the game.
Playing big stacks in Pot Limit makes the players think ahead. They think,
if I call this bet, what will I have to call next time? They think
how much to raise in each instant, to get the pot to maximum value to
bluff or to win on the river. The great players don't bet to get called all
the time, even when they have the nuts and know they will be able to get X
amount if they bet this amount. Their way of thinking is this, if I bet this
amount to milk this guy, then when I try to steal with a big bet, it will
strike him that I am not milking him. They would rather not get called, as
they can steal this much or far more. They put you to the test as far as
calling. In pot limit, if you are always in the position of calling, you are
the loser. For the big stack is not the big stack by accident.
Big stacks don't just get to be big stacks. Many make sure they have enough
to cover all players when they sit down. If you consider yourself the best
in your game, or even one of the best, you will have the big stack, or close
enough to the big stack to not make much of a difference.
Remember in Pot Limit, there are more moves than in No Limit. It
takes 5 bets to get a big stack all in in pot limit. I mean Pot
bets. No Limit players are used to making
3 moves as this is all they can think of. Pot Limit requires greater skills,
and more bets. You analyze the hand from the beginning. Your
thoughts must be HOW, WHEN,and WHAT. How much to bet, when to bet, and what
to bet. This is something that many No Limit holdem players lack.
Remember, any fool can play a large stack and stack off on a coin flip, as
in No Limit. It takes architectural skills to build a pot and win it in Pot
Limit. I had a standard joke when I played Pot Limit and someone
asked me what I did for a living. I would answer I was an architect, meaning
I built pots. This is a skill most players never
comprehend.
..
I am rambling on too long, so I will end this post at this time.
I will answer reasonable questions. I have never seen
Mike Caro play pot or no limit anything. This is the game I pick in
all duels [pot limit, anything]]. I will make the same statement I have been
stating for more than 30 years now. I eat world champions like kids eat
cheerios. So, I know all the great players haven't left RGP. Some or most
pretenders have.
Russ Georgiev
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