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From: Newgca (newgca@aol.com)
Subject: GCA "Stud 8, MORE" Theory
View: Complete Thread (11 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker
Date: 2003-07-21 12:48:12 PST


Stud 8, More

Today we will deal with Stud 8, for those further advanced in the game. Many of
the concepts I will be dealing with can be applied to low limit Stud 8, though
because of the antes and the overall structure and rake, one must really be
aware of where he stands. These concepts would normally be used starting out
in $20 $40 limits and higher.

First let me discuss online games on Stud 8. How many of you are familiar with
the ante structure, bring ins and the rake in these games? Most of these games
have very bad structures. Structures of poker games, especially stud games is
the determining factor on how often the game usually goes. Most online games,
at the higher levels have terrible structures. Most have a 10-1 ante to bet
ratio, making it impossible to play these games shorthanded, the reason being
the games just get to tight. The ante and bring in are so small it is hardly
worth the attempt to steal the antes. When situations like this occur the games
usually break up.

Most of you have to be familiar with my stance on casino poker. You might say I
am not a person that is casino friendly. However, if you like playing Stud 8,
the best games by far are on Planet Poker. Now Planet Poker is not a great
site, but it does have the best Stud 8 games online. The main reason being is a
far better structure. How many of you have ever played the $8-$16 or the
$15-$30 games on Planet Poker? Planet has a two dollar ante for its $15-$30
game, with a $7.50 bring in. This structure allows shorthanded play, it also
allows the game to keep running when it gets short. Planet's games also have
far more players playing the pots than any other sites. Even the small games,
such as $1-$2, $2-$4 are far superior to any other Stud 8 games on any site.
However, this is not a commercial for Planet Poker, this is just some good
advice for people looking for good Stud 8 games.

On with our lesson. I have already stated the numerous starting hands you are
able to play in this game. Those unfamiliar with the playing hands have only to
do a Google search under GCA Stud 8. Many hands I have mentioned as not being
playable, can some times be played when you have advanced high enough in this
game to understand the few possibilities allowing this.

Attacking the Game.

The key element to start your assault on a stud eight game is being able to
analyze the board. The board is the key factor in determining hands you will
be playing. It determines how you play the hand. The first thing a player
does is see how many bricks are on the board, the position of the bricks and
the position of the low card bring in. Then you proceed from this point. There
are many ways to attack this game, one being with several players in the pot,
another being in a heads up situation. Regardless of the situation you are in,
you want the hand that is most beneficial to this position. In pots having
several players in them, it is more advantageous for you to start low. I have
already discussed the low starting hands on previous posts. I shall not repeat
myself as you get all check the archives. In heads up situations it is best to
go with a high start or a potential high start, the most beneficial way being
with a high low pair or high low cards. These cards, as I have described
before, consist of the 6's, 7's and 8's.

Onto a demonstration of the play of a hand. Take a scenario where you sit with
a pair of fours in the hole and 5 up. The bring in card of a 2 is a right in
front of you. You look at the board and see many low cards are out, meaning if
you do raise you most likely will not be alone. In situations like this you
throw your hand away, as small pairs have their pros, but also have their cons.

Now take a scenario where you look at the board and you hold a pair sixes with
a seven up. Half of the board indicates bricks or cards higher than an eight.
This is the situation where you raise the bring in, hoping to isolate the low
card or just win the pot the way it is. Having a high card raise you is not a
bad thing either. For most people have no clue on how to play big pairs.

Stud eight is a game of small cards, and small cards will eventually stop the
high cards from betting, for once you have three small cards on the board
without a pair, the high board is in practicality looking at a potential free
roll, knowing he will be sticking in three large bets in order to get back his
2 or 3 small bets. This is not considered a good gamble and most people with
any concept of this game will dump the hand when the opposition shows the three
small cards on the board. Financially it isn't beneficial putting in three
large bets to possibly get your three small bets back. This is the reason why
high cards are seldom played in this game. Obviously opportunities will arise
when these cards can be played, situations being when others enter the pot with
bricks themselves.

Opening the Pot

When opening the pot, after evaluating the board, raise. Limping is out as you
lose valuable information from not doing this. Don't let the Ace or a couple of
those Aces scare you, because they needn't have a playing hand. The better
players will raise with an Ace up if they enter the pot, so if you get reraised
after opening by an Ace, don't get brainwashed into thinking this person has to
have Aces. I have stated previously, this is a game of deception and a person
is doing this in case the bricks come.

Bricks

If your opposition doesn't hit bricks, you aren't going to win no matter what
you do, unless you also don't hit any. The general theory of the game is based
on an assumption that one of the first 2 cards you hit after you open will be a
brick. Anyone can play cards without out bad ones. The skill to Stud 8 comes
when you learn to play the game when you both catch bricks. To the best player,
the brick is your ally.

Lets go further into this concept. Lets say the low card of a 2 brings the pot
in. The next player raises with a 4 up and upon looking at the rest of the
board, you feel no one else will be in this pot, except the possible opener and
original raiser. You hold split 8's with a 6 up. To many players this hand is a
dump, but to the more accomplished player, this is a valuable opportunity. It
is a possible scenario where he can get heads up with a person with a low
holding. It isn't as easy as you may think beating a pairs of 8's, starting
with a 2,4,5.

So here you come, making it 2 bets. If this player comes back over the top to
make it 3 bets, most of the time he is going high and the fact he tells you
this means he is a weak player. Even if he isn't going high, it isn't the
smartest play to make, as sooner or later playing like this will eliminate you
against superior opponents. We mentioned raising with split 8's and a 6, yet it
wouldn't matter if the hand was 5,6,7 or 6,7,8 or many such hands. You just
want to be able to put the thought in the persons mind you are going high, for
if he thinks you are going low, he will own you.

Here is the reason why. You can't always catch well in this game. Basically you
are looking at an 8-5 scenario you catch small. Say you do like I have
explained and the person you are playing against catches a Q while you catch a
J. What do you do when or if he comes out betting? Do you think this person has
a Q? Why is this person making this bet? Have you given this any thought?
Probability dictates the person is making a play on you, by trying to make you
think he has high. Say he does have a small pair in the hole. What is your
option? Your only option is to raise, as both of you or at least he is in most
probability trying to use deception on you. So you raise back, implying you do
have high. The edge really shows when you both catch bricks again that don't
pair. Either you are sitting with a hand with a pair against a hand with 3 low
and 2 bricks or you are sitting against a hand having a small pair. How many
people want to call a large bet with 3 to a low and 2 bricks? You have
established dominance by rereaising and establishing high. Don't worry if this
person has played split 4's with a brick and makes two pair. Obviously he will
probably win this hand, but you will soon own him as an approach like this will
catch up to you very quickly in this game. One hand does not make a limit game.

Scooping

In higher levels of this game, low only gets you your money back. High is the
way to go, but with low cards as I have stated before. High low cards have a
definite edge over low, low cards. Having you pair one of your higher low cards
forces the opposition to pair twice. A rule of thumb is to bet when both of you
have two bricks and your baby or starting low card is higher than the person
you are playing against. Be able to evaluate the board and see if you have an
Ace high and get called, will it be able to beat the person if he made his low?
Examples of this can be if you raised with an Ace against another low card.
Having both of you catch bricks, then low again and then bricks will in many
cases lead you to realize the person is drawing for low. Realize if you bet and
if he makes low, will you Ace high be able to beat his low hand for high?

Value betting

Opportunities arise when your opening low card is higher than his opening low
card. Situations like this arise and you both are catching bricks. Make sure
you get full value. Realize low pairs must be bet for value because low pairs
will be called by lower pairs when players think you are making a play on them.
This happens very frequently and if you check in this situation and the person
bets you will in most probability call. So why not bet the hand anyway, just
in case he doesn't make two pair, for you will get paid off with that one small
pair as often as you won't. But by checking if the person does make two pair it
is an automatic bet on his part, yet if he misses he will check and you will
lose your bet. It is hard to raise the pots with two pair. Very few players do
so.

Most have no idea how often a pair of 8's will win a sizable pot, when both of
you are catching bricks. There are all also numerous ways you can steal or
attempt to steal in these situations. Say you start off by raising with an Ace
against an opening low card. You both catch bricks, the better player will
obviously continue his assault by representing he has aces. However what
happens when the next card comes brick for the Ace and low with the other
person? You know the person is sitting with four to a low and a brick, you also
know you are sitting with three to a low and an Ace high with two bricks. Is
this a time to give up? Consider this theory, continue betting, for this person
may have a pair instead of the four to a low that you put him on. By continuing
pressure like this, it makes this person think. Perhaps you do have the high
and he should dump this hand. Even if he has four to a low, low isn't going to
get him anything except his money back. Provided you can beat a very weak high.
Obviously, once a low card comes on six street and even if you brick, think
about what to do. What do you put this person on? Your board is now showing a
high hand with no possible low, or at least in theory. This person has you
pegged for having a pair. Actually he may have a pair also as well as a low
draw. Checking in this position will tell the person everything he needs to
know about your hand. By betting you allow yourself the means steal to this pot
if the person bricks on the river. Think about what I just stated.

The small pairs, provided they are higher than the other small pairs will win
their fair share and even scoop many heads-up pots, due to the fact the
opposition thinks you are going low.

Summary

I will be posting theory posts on Monday from now on, dealing with many games.
I will be writing a full book on Stud 8. I promise you this will be the best
book ever written on this game. This is just a small sampling, or shall we call
it bait? I have no idea how many words I ever written in this post. I do know
it has taken me at least six hours to write and proofread, wheteher good or
not. In the end I all also have to make a living sooner or later. I believe no
one can offer better information on higher limits, pot limit, no limit or poker
tournament strategy, along with split game strategy. If anyone thinks they are
capable of debating me go right ahead. Obviously I have played with Vince
Lepore to show that a person like this has no knowledge of what he is talking
about. I have been a professional high stakes poker player for over 35 years.
I play all games. I let my theory be my judge. Millions of words have gone into
discrediting me, yet all that is needed is to discredit my poker theory. Why
waste time on anything else, just have these so-called experts attack my poker
theory and debate the issue with me, instead of wasting all the time stating I
am a no one in poker. If they had more knowledge on poker theory that I do they
would be the first to attack it. The fact is, it stands on its own merits, not
being attacked by anything more than a Mike Caro stating is wrong means
absolutely nothing. I have more knowledge of poker theory than Sklansly or Caro
have ever thought about. Obviously they can get the lesson for basic
information and math on simulations in show down situations. I was unaware
poker was a showdown game. Rather than posting all the rhetoric about my not
having any credibility, just have them debate and show my poker knowledge is
ridiculous. This would certainly ruin me. Caro has said my theory of seven is
not logical. Could he elaborate? I don't think so. Sklansky has stated much of
the same. They continually post, yet never say anything. If they really wanted
to discredit me, or even could discredit me why not attack my poker theory?
The answer is they are not capable, since the theory I post is to far above
either of them. Yes, I'll have many people stating what do I know about poker
theory? I'll ask the same of these people? I have played every type of high
stakes poker game or close to the last 40 years. This is the only occupation I
have ever had. This is the only income I ever had. So fire away guys so I can
really show these people how little you really know to the educated poker
player. It is easy to con or educate those with little or no knowledge, but
after they reach a level where these teachers can no longer provide the
answers, I am the one with the knowledge. Why waste your time with anything
else but attacking my poker theory, for if you can show these people I don't
know what I'm talking about you will have won. I wish you luck, though it won't
do you a good.

I will answer any reasonable questions and I expect many. The best book ever
written on stud eight will be out before the end of the year.

Russ Georgiev